CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret Prisons

[El Hombre Invisible]

Are you implying that it is the desire of the CIA to run and/or fund torture factories?

No, the opposite - renditioning is about the CIA not running or funding torture factories. The establishments already exist. The people running them are, apparently, willing and able to do the CIA's work for them. Thus the CIA do not need to run or fund them. (Although there is the question of why these countries are willing to assist in this capacity. The answer could be darker still.)

 

[PerennialII]

...Is it humane? No. ...

This suffices. If you want to give organizations like the CIA such power and believe they can't reach results otherwise not much to say ( - except strongly disagree). I argue it would say quite a bit about their competence and the ethical standards (&state) of a society where such conduct is acceptable (if anything goes - then anything goes).

 

[alexandra]

Torture does work... So making sure that you have the right suspects is crucial. Is it humane? No. Is it practical? I would have to concede a Yes under the current circumstances.
But no one has giving me an answer to my question. How else do we get the information from these people that will save innocent people (masses of people) from being murdered? If you guys don't start giving up some reasonable answers, I'll have to start a new thread with this as a topic. If there are better solutions, then we need to explore them. But until then we have to stick to what has worked since before civilization, unfortunately.

I think you may be asking the wrong question, deckart: "How else do we get the information from these people that will save innocent lives?" does not, in my opinion, address the root causes of the problem. Terrorism will continue as long as its causes are not addressed, and these causes run deep and are systemic. Torturing people to obtain information is a sort of 'band aid' solution to a fatal wound, in my opinion; one has to change social structures and provide people with reasons to live and a hope for a meaningful future - in my opinion, that's the only thing that would stop terrorism.

By the way, condoning torture (no matter for what reason) is anything but 'civilised' (in my opinion). Truly civilised people would not condone any form of torture - I don't see how such uncivilised means can result in civilised ends.

 

[deckart]

I think you may be asking the wrong question, deckart: "How else do we get the information from these people that will save innocent lives?" does not, in my opinion, address the root causes of the problem. Terrorism will continue as long as its causes are not addressed, and these causes run deep and are systemic. Torturing people to obtain information is a sort of 'band aid' solution to a fatal wound, in my opinion; one has to change social structures and provide people with reasons to live and a hope for a meaningful future - in my opinion, that's the only thing that would stop terrorism.
By the way, condoning torture (no matter for what reason) is anything but 'civilised' (in my opinion). Truly civilised people would not condone any form of torture - I don't see how such uncivilised means can result in civilised ends.

Give me a civilized solution to getting information from a terrorist individual who is withholding information that would prevent the murder of thousands of innocent lives. Anybody?

 

[PerennialII]

Give me a civilized solution to getting information from a terrorist individual who is withholding information that would prevent the murder of thousands of innocent lives. Anybody?

... aren't you simplifying this a 'bit' too extensively, are you arguing that torturing terrorists is some sort of a necessity in order to gain information? Without it information gathering will lead to a definite dead end? Criminals are interrogated everyday with good results, how can you assume that torture somehow leads without a doubt to a better outcome, in increase of reliable and useful information?

 

[Art]

Give me a civilized solution to getting information from a terrorist individual who is withholding information that would prevent the murder of thousands of innocent lives. Anybody?

Given your stated view that the end justifies any means, what sets you apart from the terrorists?

 

[deckart]

Given your stated view that the end justifies any means, what sets you apart from the terrorists?

Well, Art, I don't scheme to crash populated airliners into high-rise buildings. I don't strap bombs to myself in an attempt to kill myself and others who have nothing to do with my cause. I don't remove heads of people because of my religious beliefs. These are just a few things off the top of my head.

Now, back to my orignal question...

 

[Art]

Well, Art, I don't scheme to crash populated airliners into high-rise buildings. I don't strap bombs to myself in an attempt to kill myself and others who have nothing to do with my cause. I don't remove heads of people because of my religious beliefs. These are just a few things off the top of my head.

And the difference between these acts and torturing people is...what exactly?

 

[edward]

Give me a civilized solution to getting information from a terrorist individual who is withholding information that would prevent the murder of thousands of innocent lives. Anybody?

The civilized solution would to be spend more time studying why they want to kill us. Their real hatred ,which led to both World Trade Center attacks, didn't start until after the first Gulf War.

And even after having been warned of a second attack our intellignece agencies were not capable of stopping it.

Do you really expect that a second war will sooth their anger? Do you really think that the CIA will capture abduct torture ,and stop every single possible perpretator of a terrorist attack?

Although the basic idea was supposedly initiated by the Clinton administration, this new paradigm of the Extraordinary Rendition scenario is a product of the misguided erroneous thinking of the current errorist administration.

Ten hours after landing in Jordan, Arar said, he was driven to Syria, where interrogators, after a day of threats, “just began beating on me.” They whipped his hands repeatedly with two-inch-thick electrical cables, and kept him in a windowless underground cell that he likened to a grave. “Not even animals could withstand it,” he said. Although he initially tried to assert his innocence, he eventually confessed to anything his tormentors wanted him to say. “You just give up,” he said. “You become like an animal.”

The man in the quote above was eventually released.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050214fa_fact6

 

[deckart]

The civilized solution would to be spend more time studying why they want to kill us. ]

Just how much time would you like to study this? And why is it necessary to understand why people are murderers? Are we going to come to some revolutionary epiphany that causes us all to go, "oh, now I understand why you feel it necessary to cut another humans head off, blow yourself up with along with innocent bystanders, it's all clear to us now!".

 

[PerennialII]

Just how much time would you like to study this? And why is it necessary to understand why people are murderers? Are we going to come to some revolutionary epiphany that causes us all to go, "oh, now I understand why you feel it necessary to cut another humans head off, blow yourself up with along with innocent bystanders, it's all clear to us now!".

You just might, don't you think dealing with the cause rather than the effect would provide means for a long term solution, rather than several groups labeling each other murderers and continuing to commit (the other side's definition of) murder?

 

[Archon]

Just how much time would you like to study this? And why is it necessary to understand why people are murderers? Are we going to come to some revolutionary epiphany that causes us all to go, "oh, now I understand why you feel it necessary to cut another humans head off, blow yourself up with along with innocent bystanders, it's all clear to us now!".

Yes! That's the perfect solution! Who would want to actually stop them from trying to blow us up, when we can just spend the rest of human history killing and being killed by them!

As an interesting aside, it seems to me that the only way you could logically condemn the terrorists (most of whom are in Iraq right now) and not, for instance, America, is by saying that, in spite of the fact that their country was invaded, the Iraqi insurgency is not legitimate. Because let me tell you, the "good guys" have killed more than their fair share of civilians. By the way, I'd much rather die by having my head cut off than by being incinerated while going about my life in, say, a Vietnamese village.

Edit: Ignore the second point, if you wish. I don't want to derail this thread even more.

 

[Skyhunter]

Deckart you ask how else would we get this information that will stop innocent people from being killed? There are drugs there and other phsycological techniques thaqt are considered more reliabe than torture. You are also assuming that the torture is effective.

One thing missing from most pro-torture arguments (3.00 / 4)

I was an interrogation instructor in the Army National Guard from 1989-1994. I trained interrogators who successfully obtained actionable intelligence during the first Gulf War with no torture. One thing apologists fail to consider when invoking the "ticking bomb" case as justification for torture is history. Say there is a ticking bomb. How did it get there? Who put it there? Where did they get the materials to make it? Where did they get the expertise to make it? Who provided the materials, money and expertise to get it there? There is a whole history involved. That's where good old-fashioned intelligence work combining humint, sigint and CI with all the attendant hard work, careful cultivation of relationships, timely and intelligent planning should have given you multiple opportunities to prevent the bomb from ever being made, transported and placed. If you're left with one bad guy who knows and torture as your only option to obtain the information to stop the ticking bomb you've already failed. Laura Rozen was right in more ways than one when she said torture is for losers. Physical duress produces bad information, its morally indefensible, and in the ticking bomb scenario is ultimately proof of intelligence failure. During the first Gulf War my roommate and fellow IPW instructor found the location of an Iraqi infantry division headquarters through a soft approach combining love of family and a shared chicken dinner from the chow hall. That and a lot of map tracking covering the floor of the tent with improvised map sheets from lined notebook paper. That info obtained combined with photo reconnaisance put a smart bomb down the vent and most of the division surrendered shortly afterward. That's how its done. Notably absent from all pro-torture arguments are the success stories, plots foiled, lives saved. What have we traded our morals and humanity for Repubs?


by grim on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:13:23 PM EDT

http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/11/14/13728/252

I would challenge you to demonstrate that it has prevented innocent people from being killed.

 

[deckart]

Deckart you ask how else would we get this information that will stop innocent people from being killed? There are drugs there and other phsycological techniques thaqt are considered more reliabe than torture.

This is a good point, Sky. And I imagine they actually do use drugs and any other effective means to get info aside from outright torture when possible. Truth is, we don't know what they are doing exactly, and the administration would tell us it isn't happening at all, of course. But, we know it is and I'm of the opinion that it has it's use considering the circumstances.

 

[edward]

Give me a civilized solution to getting information from a terrorist individual who is withholding information that would prevent the murder of thousands of innocent lives. Anybody?

Come to think of it, this scenario sounds like something out of a B grade movie.
How many times will we have in custody one key terrorist who would give facts, under duress, that would immediately save thousands?

Extraordinary rendition began under the Clinton administration as a program to return individuals to their home countries for prosecution. Using the abberation that it has evolved into can easily be defeated by compartmentalizing (cells) information with each participant only knowing a small part of the overall plan.

The bad guys are probably already doing this, along with throwing the CIA names of totally innocent people just to cloud the issue even further.
Has Dick Cheney seen too many James Bond movies?

 

[Astronuc]

U.S. Admits Botched Detention, Merkel Says

BERLIN - German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Tuesday that the United States has admitted making a mistake in the case of a German national who claimed he was wrongfully imprisoned by the CIA.

Merkel spoke during a press conference with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who refused to discuss specifics with reporters. The two women leaders' first meeting was dominated by questions about U.S. terrorism policies, including the five-month detention of Lebanese-born Khaled al-Masri and reports of secret CIA prisons and potentially illegal use of European airports and airspace to transport terror suspects.

"The American administration is not denying" it erred in the case of al-Masri, Merkel said through a translator.

Merkel welcomed that admission and added that she is grateful for Rice's assurances that the United States conducts anti-terror operations legally and without the use of torture.

"I'm happy to say we have discussed the one case, which the government of the United States has of course accepted as a mistake," Merkel said. "I'm very happy that the foreign minister has repeated here that when such mistakes happen, they must be corrected immediately. Everything else must happen in accordance with the law."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051206/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/rice

Some background - http://www.ufppc.org/content/view/2426/

On Mar. 3, the Los Angeles Times reported that Milan's leading prosecutor is investigating a February 2003 case of "extraordinary rendition" involving an Egyptian-born man seized in the northern Italian city, blindfolded, and flown from Aviano Air Base north of Venice to Egypt, where he was tortured. -- On Sunday, the Washington Post reported that "the Italian probe is one of three official investigations that have surfaced in the past year into renditions believed to have taken place in Western Europe," since in these cases "U.S. agents may have broken local laws." -- "Prosecutors in Italy and Germany have not ruled out criminal charges" against U.S. agents, the Post reports. -- A case that originated in Sweden is discussed only fleetingly here, but the Post article offers new details about the case of Khaled Masri, a German citizen seized by Macedonian border guards, sent to Afghanistan by way of Baghdad, and held for months as a suspected terrorist. -- Only after Masri, whose name resembles that of Khalid Masri, an al Qaeda suspect from the Mohammed Atta's Hamburg cell, went on a hunger strike did American officials conclude that this was a case of mistaken identity; he was then flown back to the Balkans and dumped "on a hillside along the Albanian border." ...

Besides the matter of torture, I have a problem with the US government simply grabbing 'innocent' people without checking. This is exactly what due process is supposed to prevent.

It is not acceptable for any government to arbitrarily detain a person, i.e. without due cause.

It is easy to call it a 'mistake', but that did not preclude kidnapping and torture. IMO, it simply indicates a callous disregard for basic human rights.

 

[Skyhunter]

Besides the matter of torture, I have a problem with the US government simply grabbing 'innocent' people without checking.

This is exactly what due process is supposed to prevent.

It is not acceptable for any government to arbitrarily detain a person, i.e. without due cause.

It is easy to call it a 'mistake', but that did not preclude kidnapping and torture. IMO, it simply indicates a callous disregard for basic human rights.

I know what you mean. I don't even recognize this country anymore.

What happened to the America I grew up in?

That shining beacon of freedom and justice for all.

I never would have believed America would behave this way, or that Americans would tolerate it. Maybe that is why so many are eager to believe that the election(s) were rigged. (Not to imply that they were not.)

 

[marlon]

I've heard about this tons of times already, I thought everybody already knew and that the news media simply didn't care...

INDEED

We, out here in Western Europe, are sick of this. It has been all over the news the past few weeks and especially during the visit of Condolizza Rice in Brussels.

So, is it true ?

marlon

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

What happened to the America I grew up in?

Perhaps the answer is in the question: you grew up. That's not an insult - if I find a country where experience does not naturally lead to disillusionment I will learn the language and move there.

 

[Art]

The Law Lords (England's Supreme Court) have ruled that information obtained through torture cannot be used as evidence in English courts. They have also put the onus on the state to prove the information wasn't obtained via torture. Another major setback for Blair.

Law lords ban evidence gained under torture
By Nigel Morris Home Affairs Correspondent
Published: 09 December 2005
The law lords heaped embarrassment on the Government over its anti-terror strategy for the second time in a year as they ruled that evidence obtained by torture should never be used in British courts.
In a landmark ruling, they demanded that the detention of eight foreign terrorist suspects should be re-examined by the secret anti-terror courts in case the crucial evidence against them had been extracted by torture.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article331969.ece

'Abhorrence'

Lord Bingham, the former Lord Chief Justice, who headed the panel of seven law lords, said English law had abhorred "torture and its fruits" for more than 500 years.

"I am startled, even a little dismayed, at the suggestion (and the acceptance by the Court of Appeal majority) that this deeply-rooted tradition and an international obligation solemnly and explicitly undertaken can be overridden by a statute and a procedural rule which make no mention of torture at all," he said.

Another member of the panel, Lord Carswell, said allowing evidence from torture to be used would "involve the state in moral defilement".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4509530.stm
It is refreshing to see at least some pillars of the government are maintaining a sense of perspective and not allowing hundreds of years worth of hard won civil rights to be eradicated overnight in a knee jerk reaction by politicians.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_re_eu/cia_secret_prisons_8;_ylt=AqYMQRvvwrTuli.KxsFrs8PB4FkB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

PARIS - A European investigator said Tuesday he has found mounting indications the United States illegally held detainees in Europe but then hurriedly shipped out the last ones to North Africa a month ago when word leaked out.

Dick Marty, a Swiss senator looking into claims the CIA operated secret prisons in Europe, said an ongoing, monthlong investigation unearthed "clues" that Poland and Romania were implicated — perhaps unwittingly.

 

[SOS2008]

I know what you mean. I don't even recognize this country anymore.

What happened to the America I grew up in?

That shining beacon of freedom and justice for all.

I never would have believed America would behave this way, or that Americans would tolerate it. Maybe that is why so many are eager to believe that the election(s) were rigged. (Not to imply that they were not.)

It's starts at home:

Is the Pentagon spying on Americans?
Secret database obtained by NBC News tracks ‘suspicious’ domestic groups

A secret Pentagon database indicates the U.S. military is collecting information on American peace activists and monitoring protests against the Iraq war. NBC's Lisa Myers reports.

By Lisa Myers, Douglas Pasternak, Rich Gardella and the NBC Investigative Unit
Updated: 7:51 p.m. ET Dec. 13, 2005

WASHINGTON - A year ago, at a Quaker Meeting House in Lake Worth, Fla., a small group of activists met to plan a protest of military recruiting at local high schools. What they didn't know was that their meeting had come to the attention of the U.S. military.

A secret 400-page Defense Department document obtained by NBC News lists the Lake Worth meeting as a “threat” and one of more than 1,500 “suspicious incidents” across the country over a recent 10-month period.

...The Defense Department document is the first inside look at how the U.S. military has stepped up intelligence collection inside this country since 9/11, which now includes the monitoring of peaceful anti-war and counter-military recruitment groups.

...Two years ago, the Defense Department directed a little known agency, Counterintelligence Field Activity, or CIFA, to establish and “maintain a domestic law enforcement database that includes information related to potential terrorist threats directed against the Department of Defense.” Then-Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz also established a new reporting mechanism known as a TALON or Threat and Local Observation Notice report. TALONs now provide “non-validated domestic threat information” from military units throughout the United States that are collected and retained in a CIFA database...

...Bert Tussing, director of Homeland Defense and Security Issues at the U.S. Army War College and a former Marine, says “there is very little that could justify the collection of domestic intelligence by the Unites States military. If we start going down this slippery slope it would be too easy to go back to a place we never want to see again,” he says.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/page/3/