Need help, from chemists or maybe nuclear engineers

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In summary, the conversation discusses various methods for removing carbon deposits from a steel pan caused by burnt olive oil. Suggestions include using nail polish remover, baking soda, and strong oxidizers such as bleach or peroxide. Non-toxic and non-flammable options such as dish soap and citrus cleaners are also mentioned. However, some dangerous and toxic options like carbon disulfide and chlorinated solvents are advised against. The conversation also delves into the topic of sauteing and appropriate cooking temperatures.
  • #1
Rach3
Burnt olive oil has resulted in some sort of weird carbon deposits on a steel pan, which resists most usual surfacant attacks and other mainstream methods. (Actually I have a whole spectrum of similar problems, due to low water pressure in my new dishwasher). I'm not going to waste any time with any manual, mechanical methods - what's a quick and easy chemical way to solve these problems in general (without damaging stainless steel or borosilicate glass)? Already tried 91% isopropanol.
 
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  • #2
Oh yeah, and I don't got no fume hood or NRC license, so that limits the options...
 
  • #3
Hmm. On a related note, how does one know the correct temperature for sauteing, and how not to exceed it? Infrared thermometer? Is an inert gas (N2) fire extinguisher appropriate for fixing errors?
 
  • #4
As a cook, I say usually you don't want to use olive oil when you need to cook at high temperatures.

As a chemist, I say try something like nail polish remover. ethyl acetate/acetone are excellent choices for cleaning glass wear a lot of times.

Also try soaking the pan with baking soda and letting it sit over night. Sometimes this nifty trick works magic at cleaning some of the toughest dirty pan problems.
 
  • #5
Interesting suggestions. Hopping over right now to CVS for some nail polish remover and baking soda. I'd actually been thinking about both, but waiting for a real chemist to chime in.
 
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  • #6
Is the action of the baking soda simply due to the basicity? Would it work faster with a strong base like NaOH/KOH?
 
  • #7
Actually, these things probably need formal consideration. Why are there no products marketed for this purpose (other than liquid detergent and steel wool, which are suboptimal)? I think I'll need to do some thorough, controlled, documented experimentation here.
 
  • #8
On second thought, there's a polycarbonate container involved also (blender), so acetone/ethyl acetate is ruled out. Other reasonable solvents - methanol? Pentane?

What about strong oxidizers, like bleach and "oxygen bleach" (peroxide)? I saw a cleaning product marketed for laundry in CVS, contains percarbonates, what about those?
 
  • #9
My wife suggests (from experience) to soak the pan in hot water and dishsoap overnight and then scrub with baking soda (which is non-abrasive).

Chemically, carbon disulphide (CS2) might work - but it reeks like rotten eggs.

Or use Citrusol - http://citrusol.com/index.html - or see their industrial page -
http://citrusol.com/_wsn/page2.html

Or use Goop, which I used to use on heavy duty grease and carbon deposits on my hands and arms. http://www.goophandcleaner.com/orange_v2.htm [Broken]
http://www.goophandcleaner.com/original_v2.htm [Broken] - probably available at a hardware store - one of these fine retailers ( :biggrin: ) - http://www.goophandcleaner.com/get_goop_v2.html [Broken]
 
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  • #10
Or maybe a stronger surfactant, one not marketed for dish use? Something in the laundry or carpet-cleaning sectors?
 
  • #11
Awesome, a whole list of suggestions! Thanks Astro!
 
  • #12
the baking soda method works because of basicity. NaOH or KOH would probably work faster, but you would have a hard time finding it. Plus dumping out a really basic solution made of KOH or NaOH wouldn't be good for the environment.
lol I am still recovering from the "waiting for a real chemist" comment.
 
  • #13
Found one solution; the marketed "antibacterial" spray I have (mixed alkyl/benzyl/methyl ammonium chlorides) has some awesome degreaser in it, took care of the blender fine.
 
  • #14
gravenewworld said:
lol I am still recovering from the "waiting for a real chemist" comment.

Huh? I'm not sure what that means - the intention was "I had been thinking about both, but I had been waiting for a real chemist to chime in". What did you think it meant? :confused:
 
  • #15
gravenewworld said:
Plus dumping out a really basic solution made of KOH or NaOH wouldn't be good for the environment.

Why? What's a tiny bit of extra sodium salt? I bet some people eat more sodium in a day.
 
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  • #16
Astronuc, hope you're kidding with that CS2 suggestion... :uhh:

Don't know about "citrusol", but I did notice a d-limonene product the other day at CVS.
 
  • #17
My suggestions:

1. The basics - baking soda + a little surfactant (a tsp of dishwasher soap, preferably powder) + gentle heat (oven at 150F) + agitation (I don't know, put your boombox in the oven?) OR 6-8 tabs of alka seltzer for a liter of water (alkalinity + effervescence for agitation) + a little surfactant OR oven cleaner + surfactant + gentle heat + lots of ventilation

2. Go acidic: regular coca cola (not diet) + heat (on stove top, till boiling) OR vinegar + soap OR citrus cleaner

3. Non-polar: carbon disulfide (read MSDS - for flammability and toxicity - and subsequently clean thoroughly)

4. Pretty damn toxic and/or carcinogenic: Trichloroethylene OR Methylene chloride OR carbon tetrachloride (these, you want to avoid)
 
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  • #18
Rach - what were you sauteing?
 
  • #19
Gokul43201 said:
My suggestions:

1. The basics - baking soda + a little surfactant (a tsp of dishwasher soap, preferably powder) + gentle heat (oven at 150F) + agitation (I don't know, put your boombox in the oven?) OR 6-8 tabs of alka seltzer for a liter of water (alkalinity + effervescence for agitation) + a little surfactant OR oven cleaner + surfactant + gentle heat + lots of ventilation

2. Go acidic: regular coca cola (not diet) + heat (on stove top, till boiling) OR vinegar + soap OR citrus cleaner

Baking soda + little surfactant --> solid NaOH + industrial degreaser
gentle heat --> oxyacetylene torch
coca cola --> conc. phosphoric acid

otherwise the effect is too small, too slow, too impatient. Good idea in principle, though.

3. Non-polar: carbon disulfide (read MSDS - for flammability and toxicity - and subsequently clean thoroughly)
Are you kidding? An extremely flammable, volatile, CNS toxin? For washing dishes?

4. Pretty damn toxic and/or carcinogenic: Trichloroethylene OR Methylene chloride OR carbon tetrachloride (these, you want to avoid)
CH2Cl2 (methylene chloride, dichloromethane, DCM) is significantly less toxic than the other two, though it's low boiling point makes up for it. The other two are well-known caricinogens. I'm not aware that any of the three have made it into commercial products; for sure none of them will enter my kitchen! :grumpy:
 
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  • #20
About all these "soak overnight" crap - yes that's a good START, but given the vast knowledge of 21st century industrial chemistry, can't we improve on that? I've already found one vastly superior alternative; "Fantastik heavy-duty antibacterial" spray (all-purpose), contaning mixed alkyl/aryl ammonium chlorides, has a very powerful degreaser in it and did what overnight soakings in liquid detergent, multiple dishwasher runs, high-temperature water, etc. could not, in SECONDS. Let's start from there; that's the best candidate so far.
 
  • #22
Rach, the "edit" button is your friend, please use it instead of adding additional information as a series of one-line replies. :wink:

What's the aversion to steel wool? If you buy the ones that have detergent incorporated into them (i.e., SOS or Brillo), they work very well on burnt on grease. So do those copper-colored mesh scrubby thingies (I think they go by the brand name Chore Boy, but are also available in no-name versions).

Or, start cooking with cast iron...then you can call it "seasoning the pan" when you burn on more and more oil until it's all black (people do it on purpose with cast iron). :biggrin:

On the more stubborn, burnt-on grease in my kitchen (like the burner covers for my stove), an overnight soak in water with powdered dishwasher detergent, and then scrubbing with lots more of it (to get the added abrasive effect) and one of those copper scrubber things does a great job.
 
  • #23
Rach3 said:
About all these "soak overnight" crap - yes that's a good START, but given the vast knowledge of 21st century industrial chemistry, can't we improve on that? I've already found one vastly superior alternative; "Fantastik heavy-duty antibacterial" spray (all-purpose), contaning mixed alkyl/aryl ammonium chlorides, has a very powerful degreaser in it and did what overnight soakings in liquid detergent, multiple dishwasher runs, high-temperature water, etc. could not, in SECONDS. Let's start from there; that's the best candidate so far.

The simplest answer is usually the best one my friend.
 
  • #24
Hmm...would oven cleaner harm the finish on a pan? I'm not sure what's in the stuff, but it's meant to get all that greasy stuff off the oven, so maybe spraying it on a pan and leaving it set for the 15 min or hour or whatever it's supposed to set for will make a quick job of it?

Or, how about liquid drain cleaner for the sodium hydroxide? That's supposed to rapidly dissolve grease, though I don't know if that's still what's in drain cleaners.
 
  • #25
Moonbear said:
Hmm...would oven cleaner harm the finish on a pan? I'm not sure what's in the stuff, but it's meant to get all that greasy stuff off the oven, so maybe spraying it on a pan and leaving it set for the 15 min or hour or whatever it's supposed to set for will make a quick job of it?

Or, how about liquid drain cleaner for the sodium hydroxide? That's supposed to rapidly dissolve grease, though I don't know if that's still what's in drain cleaners.

I had considered NaOH, though I'm not sure what gunk they add to it in drain cleaner formulations to make them into gels. Kroger sells plain solid NaOH ("Red Devil Lye"), friend's family was into soapmaking with that stuff. It's less practical because of the time and effort spent dissolving it in water carefully. My best method so far remains the degreaser "Fantastik" which I had all along in my kitchen.

Don't know anything about oven cleaners, I think they also use NaOH or KOH.

Things I haven't really looked into are strong oxidizers, and the d-limonene product Astronuc pointed out.
 
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  • #26
Any suggestions on the sauteing temperature and how to determine/control it?
 
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  • #27
Moonbear - the pan isn't teflon, it's stainless steel.
 
  • #28
Rach3 said:
Don't know anything about oven cleaners, I think they also use NaOH or KOH.
I believe so too.

Things I haven't really looked into are strong oxidizers...
Ah, bleach! It's worth a shot!
 
  • #29
Rach3 said:
Kroger sells plain solid NaOH ("Red Devil Lye")
Kroger sells (present tense) or sold (past tense) Red Devil Lye?
The company that made Red Devil lye discontinued the product about 1 1/2 years ago and it has become increasingly difficult to find places that still have any in stock without paying a huge mark up.

It might not be the best idea to let the pan soak in a concentrated NaOH / KOH solution for too long, but for short periods it should be OK.

Dont use bleach on Steel / Stainless Steel for extended periods of time, it will oxidize the metal and leave you with a pan that has little rust spots on it (just like the pan I have).
 
  • #30
mrjeffy321 said:
Kroger sells (present tense) or sold (past tense) Red Devil Lye?
The company that made Red Devil lye discontinued the product about 1 1/2 years ago and it has become increasingly difficult to find places that still have any in stock without paying a huge mark up.

Well, they did as of several years ago. I wasn't aware of Red Devil Lye being discontinued, but I'm not surprised as it's obviously less convenient than the gel versions of drain cleaner.
Dont use bleach on Steel / Stainless Steel for extended periods of time, it will oxidize the metal and leave you with a pan that has little rust spots on it (just like the pan I have).

Thanks for the tip, I suspected oxidizers might have some oxidizing properties. Where'd your rust spots come from, bleach cleaning?
 
  • #31
Rach3 said:
Where'd your rust spots come from, bleach cleaning?
Actually, my rust spots are a little more than spots...they are holes in the bottom and sides of the pan. They came from my days of boiling bleach. Nevertheless, letting the pot soak in room temperature bleach for significant periods of time should bring out the imperfections in the pot with a lovely layer of Fe2O3.
Speaking of Fe2O3 and carbon deposits,
2 Fe2O3 + 3 C --heat--> 4 Fe + 3 CO2,
Its not really a practical solution thought.
 
  • #32
Rach3 said:
Thanks for the tip, I suspected oxidizers might have some oxidizing properties.
A bleach scrub doesn't hurt stainless. It'll take longer than that, as Jeffy pointed out.

Where'd your rust spots come from, bleach cleaning?
That's easy to guess - that would be from Jeffy's thermite project!

Edit: Oops! Didn't see there was a third page.
 
  • #33
Rach3 said:
Moonbear - the pan isn't teflon, it's stainless steel.

:uhh: That was obvious from the photo. Why are you telling me this? If it was teflon, you wouldn't be asking how to scrub it clean.
 
  • #34
Rach3 said:
Any suggestions on the sauteing temperature and how to determine/control it?
Evo should jump in on this one. I have seen medium heat for vegetables and high heat for meats. Of course, if one wants 'blackened' fish (e.g. Cajun style) - that requires high heat. :rolleyes:

I think vegetable saute temperature would be just above the boiling point of water - or perhaps about 200-250 F and for meets its like 325-375 F.

This might be useful - Smoke Points of Various Fats/Oils
 
  • #35
Rach3 said:
Any suggestions on the sauteing temperature and how to determine/control it?
First off, your temperature was way too high for salmon, and you not only have burnt oil to get off that pan, but carmelized juices from the filet, too, so oven cleaner or mechanical abrasion may be your best options.

If you want to cook things at very high heat and not scorch your pan, use a higher-temperature oil like peanut oil and keep the food moving, and if you start getting smoke, reduce the temperature immediately. Woks are very good for this and they are usually thin enough to provide for a very fast cool down if you have overheated it a bit. And Moonie's right - around here we use the steel wok or cast-iron frying pans, and they all have a "seasoning" layer scorched onto them. We wipe them clean and rinse them, but do not wash them in soap. If that becomes necessary, they must be rinsed very thoroughly to remove soap residue, then heated to dry them, and then seasoned again with salt and oil over high heat.
 
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<h2>1. What is the difference between a chemist and a nuclear engineer?</h2><p>A chemist primarily studies the composition, properties, and reactions of substances at the molecular level, while a nuclear engineer focuses on the design, development, and operation of nuclear power plants and other nuclear technologies.</p><h2>2. Can a chemist also work in the field of nuclear engineering?</h2><p>Yes, there is overlap between the two fields, as both involve understanding and manipulating the behavior of atoms and molecules. However, specialized knowledge and training in nuclear engineering may be necessary for certain roles in the field.</p><h2>3. How can a chemist help with nuclear engineering?</h2><p>A chemist's expertise in understanding the behavior of atoms and molecules can be applied to developing new materials and processes for nuclear technologies, as well as analyzing and improving existing systems.</p><h2>4. What are some common challenges faced by chemists and nuclear engineers?</h2><p>Both fields involve working with hazardous materials and potentially dangerous processes, so safety is a top priority. Additionally, both fields require a strong understanding of complex scientific principles and the ability to problem-solve and think critically.</p><h2>5. What are some current developments in the field of nuclear engineering that chemists may be interested in?</h2><p>Some current areas of research and development in nuclear engineering include advanced reactor designs, nuclear waste management, and nuclear fusion. Chemists may be involved in developing new materials for these technologies or improving processes for their production and use.</p>

1. What is the difference between a chemist and a nuclear engineer?

A chemist primarily studies the composition, properties, and reactions of substances at the molecular level, while a nuclear engineer focuses on the design, development, and operation of nuclear power plants and other nuclear technologies.

2. Can a chemist also work in the field of nuclear engineering?

Yes, there is overlap between the two fields, as both involve understanding and manipulating the behavior of atoms and molecules. However, specialized knowledge and training in nuclear engineering may be necessary for certain roles in the field.

3. How can a chemist help with nuclear engineering?

A chemist's expertise in understanding the behavior of atoms and molecules can be applied to developing new materials and processes for nuclear technologies, as well as analyzing and improving existing systems.

4. What are some common challenges faced by chemists and nuclear engineers?

Both fields involve working with hazardous materials and potentially dangerous processes, so safety is a top priority. Additionally, both fields require a strong understanding of complex scientific principles and the ability to problem-solve and think critically.

5. What are some current developments in the field of nuclear engineering that chemists may be interested in?

Some current areas of research and development in nuclear engineering include advanced reactor designs, nuclear waste management, and nuclear fusion. Chemists may be involved in developing new materials for these technologies or improving processes for their production and use.

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