Need help, from chemists or maybe nuclear engineers

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around methods for cleaning burnt olive oil and carbon deposits from kitchenware, specifically stainless steel pans and borosilicate glass. Participants explore various chemical and non-chemical cleaning techniques, addressing the challenges posed by low water pressure and the limitations of available cleaning products.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest using nail polish remover (acetone/ethyl acetate) for cleaning, while others caution against it due to the presence of polycarbonate materials.
  • Soaking the pan in baking soda overnight is proposed as a potential solution, with questions raised about the effectiveness of stronger bases like NaOH or KOH.
  • Several participants mention the lack of marketed products specifically designed for cleaning burnt-on residues, prompting thoughts about controlled experimentation.
  • Alternative solvents such as methanol and pentane are discussed, along with the potential use of strong oxidizers like bleach and percarbonates.
  • Suggestions include using commercial cleaning products like Citrusol and Goop, as well as exploring non-polar solvents like carbon disulfide, despite their toxicity.
  • Some participants emphasize the need for effective cleaning methods beyond simple soaking, proposing combinations of heat, surfactants, and agitation.
  • Concerns are raised about the environmental impact of disposing of strong bases and the safety of using highly toxic solvents in kitchen settings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of opinions on the effectiveness and safety of various cleaning methods, with no consensus reached on a single best approach. There are competing views on the use of chemical versus mechanical cleaning methods, as well as the appropriateness of certain solvents.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the absence of formal testing or documentation of suggested methods, the potential hazards associated with some chemicals, and the varying effectiveness of different cleaning strategies based on specific materials involved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to home cooks, chemists, and individuals seeking effective cleaning solutions for kitchenware, particularly those dealing with stubborn residues and limited cleaning resources.

Rach3
Burnt olive oil has resulted in some sort of weird carbon deposits on a steel pan, which resists most usual surfacant attacks and other mainstream methods. (Actually I have a whole spectrum of similar problems, due to low water pressure in my new dishwasher). I'm not going to waste any time with any manual, mechanical methods - what's a quick and easy chemical way to solve these problems in general (without damaging stainless steel or borosilicate glass)? Already tried 91% isopropanol.
 
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Oh yeah, and I don't got no fume hood or NRC license, so that limits the options...
 
Hmm. On a related note, how does one know the correct temperature for sauteing, and how not to exceed it? Infrared thermometer? Is an inert gas (N2) fire extinguisher appropriate for fixing errors?
 
As a cook, I say usually you don't want to use olive oil when you need to cook at high temperatures.

As a chemist, I say try something like nail polish remover. ethyl acetate/acetone are excellent choices for cleaning glass wear a lot of times.

Also try soaking the pan with baking soda and letting it sit over night. Sometimes this nifty trick works magic at cleaning some of the toughest dirty pan problems.
 
Interesting suggestions. Hopping over right now to CVS for some nail polish remover and baking soda. I'd actually been thinking about both, but waiting for a real chemist to chime in.
 
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Is the action of the baking soda simply due to the basicity? Would it work faster with a strong base like NaOH/KOH?
 
Actually, these things probably need formal consideration. Why are there no products marketed for this purpose (other than liquid detergent and steel wool, which are suboptimal)? I think I'll need to do some thorough, controlled, documented experimentation here.
 
On second thought, there's a polycarbonate container involved also (blender), so acetone/ethyl acetate is ruled out. Other reasonable solvents - methanol? Pentane?

What about strong oxidizers, like bleach and "oxygen bleach" (peroxide)? I saw a cleaning product marketed for laundry in CVS, contains percarbonates, what about those?
 
My wife suggests (from experience) to soak the pan in hot water and dishsoap overnight and then scrub with baking soda (which is non-abrasive).

Chemically, carbon disulphide (CS2) might work - but it reeks like rotten eggs.

Or use Citrusol - http://citrusol.com/index.html - or see their industrial page -
http://citrusol.com/_wsn/page2.html

Or use Goop, which I used to use on heavy duty grease and carbon deposits on my hands and arms. http://www.goophandcleaner.com/orange_v2.htm
http://www.goophandcleaner.com/original_v2.htm - probably available at a hardware store - one of these fine retailers ( :biggrin: ) - http://www.goophandcleaner.com/get_goop_v2.html
 
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  • #10
Or maybe a stronger surfactant, one not marketed for dish use? Something in the laundry or carpet-cleaning sectors?
 
  • #11
Awesome, a whole list of suggestions! Thanks Astro!
 
  • #12
the baking soda method works because of basicity. NaOH or KOH would probably work faster, but you would have a hard time finding it. Plus dumping out a really basic solution made of KOH or NaOH wouldn't be good for the environment.
lol I am still recovering from the "waiting for a real chemist" comment.
 
  • #13
Found one solution; the marketed "antibacterial" spray I have (mixed alkyl/benzyl/methyl ammonium chlorides) has some awesome degreaser in it, took care of the blender fine.
 
  • #14
gravenewworld said:
lol I am still recovering from the "waiting for a real chemist" comment.

Huh? I'm not sure what that means - the intention was "I had been thinking about both, but I had been waiting for a real chemist to chime in". What did you think it meant? :confused:
 
  • #15
gravenewworld said:
Plus dumping out a really basic solution made of KOH or NaOH wouldn't be good for the environment.

Why? What's a tiny bit of extra sodium salt? I bet some people eat more sodium in a day.
 
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  • #16
Astronuc, hope you're kidding with that CS2 suggestion... :rolleyes:

Don't know about "citrusol", but I did notice a d-limonene product the other day at CVS.
 
  • #17
My suggestions:

1. The basics - baking soda + a little surfactant (a tsp of dishwasher soap, preferably powder) + gentle heat (oven at 150F) + agitation (I don't know, put your boombox in the oven?) OR 6-8 tabs of alka seltzer for a liter of water (alkalinity + effervescence for agitation) + a little surfactant OR oven cleaner + surfactant + gentle heat + lots of ventilation

2. Go acidic: regular coca cola (not diet) + heat (on stove top, till boiling) OR vinegar + soap OR citrus cleaner

3. Non-polar: carbon disulfide (read MSDS - for flammability and toxicity - and subsequently clean thoroughly)

4. Pretty damn toxic and/or carcinogenic: Trichloroethylene OR Methylene chloride OR carbon tetrachloride (these, you want to avoid)
 
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  • #18
Rach - what were you sauteing?
 
  • #19
Gokul43201 said:
My suggestions:

1. The basics - baking soda + a little surfactant (a tsp of dishwasher soap, preferably powder) + gentle heat (oven at 150F) + agitation (I don't know, put your boombox in the oven?) OR 6-8 tabs of alka seltzer for a liter of water (alkalinity + effervescence for agitation) + a little surfactant OR oven cleaner + surfactant + gentle heat + lots of ventilation

2. Go acidic: regular coca cola (not diet) + heat (on stove top, till boiling) OR vinegar + soap OR citrus cleaner

Baking soda + little surfactant --> solid NaOH + industrial degreaser
gentle heat --> oxyacetylene torch
coca cola --> conc. phosphoric acid

otherwise the effect is too small, too slow, too impatient. Good idea in principle, though.

3. Non-polar: carbon disulfide (read MSDS - for flammability and toxicity - and subsequently clean thoroughly)
Are you kidding? An extremely flammable, volatile, CNS toxin? For washing dishes?

4. Pretty damn toxic and/or carcinogenic: Trichloroethylene OR Methylene chloride OR carbon tetrachloride (these, you want to avoid)
CH2Cl2 (methylene chloride, dichloromethane, DCM) is significantly less toxic than the other two, though it's low boiling point makes up for it. The other two are well-known caricinogens. I'm not aware that any of the three have made it into commercial products; for sure none of them will enter my kitchen!
 
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  • #20
About all these "soak overnight" crap - yes that's a good START, but given the vast knowledge of 21st century industrial chemistry, can't we improve on that? I've already found one vastly superior alternative; "Fantastik heavy-duty antibacterial" spray (all-purpose), contaning mixed alkyl/aryl ammonium chlorides, has a very powerful degreaser in it and did what overnight soakings in liquid detergent, multiple dishwasher runs, high-temperature water, etc. could not, in SECONDS. Let's start from there; that's the best candidate so far.
 
  • #22
Rach, the "edit" button is your friend, please use it instead of adding additional information as a series of one-line replies. :wink:

What's the aversion to steel wool? If you buy the ones that have detergent incorporated into them (i.e., SOS or Brillo), they work very well on burnt on grease. So do those copper-colored mesh scrubby thingies (I think they go by the brand name Chore Boy, but are also available in no-name versions).

Or, start cooking with cast iron...then you can call it "seasoning the pan" when you burn on more and more oil until it's all black (people do it on purpose with cast iron). :biggrin:

On the more stubborn, burnt-on grease in my kitchen (like the burner covers for my stove), an overnight soak in water with powdered dishwasher detergent, and then scrubbing with lots more of it (to get the added abrasive effect) and one of those copper scrubber things does a great job.
 
  • #23
Rach3 said:
About all these "soak overnight" crap - yes that's a good START, but given the vast knowledge of 21st century industrial chemistry, can't we improve on that? I've already found one vastly superior alternative; "Fantastik heavy-duty antibacterial" spray (all-purpose), contaning mixed alkyl/aryl ammonium chlorides, has a very powerful degreaser in it and did what overnight soakings in liquid detergent, multiple dishwasher runs, high-temperature water, etc. could not, in SECONDS. Let's start from there; that's the best candidate so far.

The simplest answer is usually the best one my friend.
 
  • #24
Hmm...would oven cleaner harm the finish on a pan? I'm not sure what's in the stuff, but it's meant to get all that greasy stuff off the oven, so maybe spraying it on a pan and leaving it set for the 15 min or hour or whatever it's supposed to set for will make a quick job of it?

Or, how about liquid drain cleaner for the sodium hydroxide? That's supposed to rapidly dissolve grease, though I don't know if that's still what's in drain cleaners.
 
  • #25
Moonbear said:
Hmm...would oven cleaner harm the finish on a pan? I'm not sure what's in the stuff, but it's meant to get all that greasy stuff off the oven, so maybe spraying it on a pan and leaving it set for the 15 min or hour or whatever it's supposed to set for will make a quick job of it?

Or, how about liquid drain cleaner for the sodium hydroxide? That's supposed to rapidly dissolve grease, though I don't know if that's still what's in drain cleaners.

I had considered NaOH, though I'm not sure what gunk they add to it in drain cleaner formulations to make them into gels. Kroger sells plain solid NaOH ("Red Devil Lye"), friend's family was into soapmaking with that stuff. It's less practical because of the time and effort spent dissolving it in water carefully. My best method so far remains the degreaser "Fantastik" which I had all along in my kitchen.

Don't know anything about oven cleaners, I think they also use NaOH or KOH.

Things I haven't really looked into are strong oxidizers, and the d-limonene product Astronuc pointed out.
 
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  • #26
Any suggestions on the sauteing temperature and how to determine/control it?
 
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  • #27
Moonbear - the pan isn't teflon, it's stainless steel.
 
  • #28
Rach3 said:
Don't know anything about oven cleaners, I think they also use NaOH or KOH.
I believe so too.

Things I haven't really looked into are strong oxidizers...
Ah, bleach! It's worth a shot!
 
  • #29
Rach3 said:
Kroger sells plain solid NaOH ("Red Devil Lye")
Kroger sells (present tense) or sold (past tense) Red Devil Lye?
The company that made Red Devil lye discontinued the product about 1 1/2 years ago and it has become increasingly difficult to find places that still have any in stock without paying a huge mark up.

It might not be the best idea to let the pan soak in a concentrated NaOH / KOH solution for too long, but for short periods it should be OK.

Dont use bleach on Steel / Stainless Steel for extended periods of time, it will oxidize the metal and leave you with a pan that has little rust spots on it (just like the pan I have).
 
  • #30
mrjeffy321 said:
Kroger sells (present tense) or sold (past tense) Red Devil Lye?
The company that made Red Devil lye discontinued the product about 1 1/2 years ago and it has become increasingly difficult to find places that still have any in stock without paying a huge mark up.

Well, they did as of several years ago. I wasn't aware of Red Devil Lye being discontinued, but I'm not surprised as it's obviously less convenient than the gel versions of drain cleaner.
Dont use bleach on Steel / Stainless Steel for extended periods of time, it will oxidize the metal and leave you with a pan that has little rust spots on it (just like the pan I have).

Thanks for the tip, I suspected oxidizers might have some oxidizing properties. Where'd your rust spots come from, bleach cleaning?
 

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