Negative Work: What Does it Mean?

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    Negative Work
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of negative work in physics, particularly in the context of a person holding a chair without displacement. Participants explore the implications of work done by forces, including gravitational force, and the conditions under which work is considered to be done.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a textbook example stating that no work is done when holding a chair because there is no displacement.
  • Another participant questions the textbook's assertion, suggesting that if gravity does negative work, then positive work must be done by the person holding the chair to achieve net zero work.
  • A participant clarifies that negative work occurs when the force and displacement are in opposite directions, but emphasizes that work requires displacement.
  • Another participant reiterates that gravity does no work on the chair when it is held stationary, suggesting that the side note from the textbook does not apply to this scenario.
  • One participant mentions the energy expenditure of muscles when holding an object in a fixed position, indicating a physiological aspect to the discussion.
  • A later reply confirms that for gravity to do negative work, there must be an opposing force acting against it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of the concept of work in this scenario. While some agree that no work is done when holding the chair without displacement, others challenge this by discussing the implications of negative work and the role of opposing forces.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the definitions of work and displacement, as well as the physiological aspects of muscle exertion that are not fully resolved. There is also a lack of consensus on the interpretation of the textbook's side note in relation to the example provided.

Jacobim
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In my textbook there is given an example of a person holding a chair for three minutes. The persons arm gets tired but no work is done because there is no displacement.

In the sidebar of my textbook, there is this note:

"We can calculate the work done by a force on an object, but that force is not necessarily the cause of the obect's displacement. For example, if you lift an object, (negative) work is done on the object by the gravitational force, although gravity is not the cause of the object moving upward!"

So if in the case of the person holding up a chair, if gravity is doing negative work, then for there to be net zero work done, there must be some positive work done by the person.

So how can they say there is no work done here?
 
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What is the textbook?
 
Physics for Scientists and Engineers 8th edition, by Serway and Jewett
 
Jacobim said:
So if in the case of the person holding up a chair, if gravity is doing negative work, then for there to be net zero work done, there must be some positive work done by the person.
Gravity only does negative work when you lift the object. Negative work just means that the force and the displacement act in opposite directions.
So how can they say there is no work done here?
Work requires a displacement. If you just hold up a chair there is no displacement, so neither gravity nor the upward force you exert do any work on the chair.
 
oh ok, that's pretty obvious now, thanks
 
Jacobim said:
In my textbook there is given an example of a person holding a chair for three minutes. The persons arm gets tired but no work is done because there is no displacement.

In the sidebar of my textbook, there is this note:

"We can calculate the work done by a force on an object, but that force is not necessarily the cause of the obect's displacement. For example, if you lift an object, (negative) work is done on the object by the gravitational force, although gravity is not the cause of the object moving upward!"

So if in the case of the person holding up a chair, if gravity is doing negative work, then for there to be net zero work done, there must be some positive work done by the person.

So how can they say there is no work done here?

Gravity does no work on the chair held in the same position for 3 minutes. You can hang the chair on a hook rather than holding it. Gravity does no work in either case.
The side note does not apply directly to your problem.
The energy spent by our body when applying a force on something in a fixed position was discussed several times.
It is related to the way the muscles work.

Edit. Sorry, I was too late.
 
For gravity to do negative work, the force must be opposite to the displacement.

So yes, to counter gravity doing negative work, there must be someone pushing against gravity!

Claude.
 

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