Newton's method to approximate integrals?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential use of Newton's method for approximating definite integrals. Participants explore various numerical integration techniques and their relationships to polynomial approximations, while considering the limitations and challenges of existing methods.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether Newton's method can be applied to approximate definite integrals, suggesting uncertainty about the validity of the question.
  • Another participant acknowledges the question as valid but notes that they have not encountered Newton's method used for numerical integration, mentioning the Newton-Cotes formula as a related approach using polynomials.
  • A participant discusses various numerical integration methods, such as Riemann sums, the trapezoid rule, and Simpson's rule, highlighting their reliance on polynomial approximations.
  • There is mention of using Taylor approximations and Fourier series as alternative methods for approximating integrals, with a focus on the challenges of finding primitives for certain functions.
  • One participant emphasizes the necessity of numerical approximations for integrals that lack elementary primitives, citing the integral of e^{-x^2} as a significant example in applications.
  • The discussion touches on the complexity of calculating the arc-length of an elliptical arc compared to the area under it, suggesting that boundaries can often be more difficult to handle than the regions themselves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of Newton's method for numerical integration, with no consensus reached on its validity. Multiple approaches to numerical integration are discussed, indicating a variety of perspectives on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the limitations of existing methods and the need for numerical approximations in cases where primitives do not exist, but specific assumptions and definitions remain unresolved.

Poly1
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
Can we use Newton's method to approximate the value of definite integrals? (Thinking)

EDIT: Ignore if the question doesn't make sense (which it probably doesn't).
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
I think it's a valid question.

Now, I won't say it is impossible, but I have never seen Newton's method used as a means for numeric integration.

However, there are methods called the Newton-Cotes formula which use polynomials as a way to approximate definite integrals.

I plan to discuss the derivation of these in the future.:D
 
I look forward to it! :D
 
almost all ways of computing integrals (except by anti-differentiation, that is: finding a primitive) use some kind of "simple function" to serve as a proxy for the function we're integrating.

riemann sums use constant functions
the trapezoid rule uses linear functions
simpson's rule (in its most basic form) use parabolas (quadratic functions)

all of these can been seen as "special" cases of using a polynomial instead of f(x), so if we're brave enough, we can use a taylor approximation.

something along a different tack is using a Fourier series (trigonometric approximation). once the Fourier coefficients are known (which, unfortunately, require computing some OTHER integrals first), integrating is very simple, as the integrals of the terms:

$$\int_a^b a_n \cos(nx)\ dx,\ \int_a^b b_n \sin(nx)\ dx$$

are straight-forward (there may be some "adjustment factors" to fit the period to the interval [a,b] which can result in some constant factors not shown).

all of these are important, because there are some fairly simple to write down integrals for which no primitives (in terms of other "elementary functions": that is combinations of polynomials, logs, or exponentials (if one allows the euler definition of sine and cosine this includes the trigonometric functions)) exist. the most famous of these is probably this integral:

$$\int e^{-x^2}\ dx$$

which occurs quite frequently in applications of mathematics (as a (suitably adjusted) "normal distribution" in probability, and which also is extremely important in signal processing). which means we NEED numerical approximations of integrals to solve "real problems".

it turns out, for example, that calculating the arc-length of an elliptical arc, is one such difficult problem (surprisingly enough, calculating the area under an elliptical arc is not so bad...you might suspect from this that "boundaries" of regions often tend to be more intractible than the regions themselves, and you'd be right).
 

Similar threads

Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
10K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
5K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
4K