Nobody complains about physicists' math?

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The discussion centers on the perception that physicists' use of mathematics often lacks the rigor found in pure mathematics, yet it still yields correct results in practical applications. Participants note that while mathematicians may find humor in physicists' approaches, this is rarely discussed openly. The conversation highlights how physicists sometimes rely on informal methods, such as using differentials without rigorous justification, to simplify complex concepts. Despite these perceived shortcomings, many physicists successfully derive accurate results, suggesting a balance between intuition and mathematical formality. Ultimately, the thread raises questions about the validity and acceptance of physicists' mathematical practices within the broader scientific community.
  • #91
Why everybody thinks that physicist don't know what you have just wrote down about delta function?
I think this is very stupid...

regards
marco
 
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  • #92
Somebody asked whether there are actual examples when insufficient knowledge of mathematics gave wrong results in physics.

There certainly exist many examples where physicists have arrived to incorrect conclusions due to wrong understanding of some mathematical issues. However, these examples are merely isolated articles because other physicists do the calculations more carefully or by different methods and eventually get the correct results, discovering and pointing out out the errors.

I can give two actual examples:

1) Calculation of Hawking radiation from the so called "tunneling formalism" (Parikh-Wilczek). Some people used a similar calculation and got twice the Hawking temperature and for a while there was a discussion about why that was so (e.g. Padmanabhan's review in Phys.Reports has this). The main problem with the calculation is that one has some integral that diverged but introduces an ad hoc "physical" prescription about how to go around the pole in the complex plane. The result is bogus. Later the error was explained in another paper, I forgot where (I think by E. Vagenas).

2) There is a paper in Nature (a "short communication") and also in some J. Physics A (see ref. below), where the authors "prove" by some "physical" arguments that all calculus textbooks can't compute derivatives of cotangent. It was claimed that

\frac{d}{dx}\frac{\cosh x}{\sinh x} = -\frac{1}{\sinh^2 x} + 2 \delta(x).

Of course their arguments are total \textrm{bulls}\textrm{hit}; there cannot be a delta function here. But the authors were solid state physicists and didn't really seem to understand such mathematical subtleties. They needed to get some answer out of some sloppily calculated integral; actually they already knew the correct answer but they could not find it unless they inserted an extra delta function as above. In other words, they wanted to fix a wrong calculation by inventing the wrong formula for d/dx (cosh x / sinh x) and arguing that the new formula is more correct than the standard formula. See arXiv:0705.1512 for references and explanations of why this is wrong (no, I'm not the author of that publication :).

3) When I was a student I passed a math exam for physicists where I was given a problem similar to the following.

Compute the definite integral

F(a,b)= \int _0 ^\infty \left( \frac{\sin(ax)}{ax^2} - \frac{\sin^2(bx)}{b^2x^3} \right) \textrm{d}x .

My solution was (unnecessarily) long and complicated and produced a complicated formula. The examiner's solution was short and brilliant. It ran something like this. Let's change variable as u=ax in the first term and as u=bx in the second term; this produces

F(a,b) = \int _0 ^\infty \left( \frac{\sin u}{u^2} - \frac{\sin^2 u}{u^3} \right) \textrm{d}u .

It follows that F(a,b) is actually independent of the parameters a,b. Now integrate the second term by parts and obtain

F(a,b) = \int _0 ^\infty \left( \frac{\sin u}{u^2} - \frac{\sin 2u}{2u^2} \right) \textrm{d}u + \left. \frac{\sin^2 u}{2u^2}\right|_0^\infty.

Again change variable to 2u in the second term in the integral. Then the integral vanishes, and so the result is just -1/2.

Of course this "brilliant" solution is wrong. The limit at x\to 0 needs to be handled more carefully. I don't remember the answer for F(a,b) but it's definitely a nontrivial function of the parameters. (I was not given the full score on this problem because the examiner believed in his solution.)

Also it's an interesting remark made by someone before that physicists invent their pseudo-explanations because of lack of real explanations in physics textbooks, and lack of real mathematical culture. Indeed the mathematics used in such pseudo-explanations is most of the time totally confusing. The answer is correct (especially if it is known beforehand), but of course there are infinitely many ways of obtaining a correct answer by incorrect calculations. This does not help students who try to understand some new material, and this does not help researchers to push science forward if they never learned correct explanations for Lagrange multipliers.

As an example: \textrm{Landau and Lifsh}\textrm{itz} vol.2, ch. 9 or 10 "prove" that the covariant derivative of the metric is always zero "from first principles", i.e. merely from the transformation properties of the covariant derivative. In fact their proof silently assumes that the covariant derivative of the metric is zero at some step where they appear to be just "juggling the indices."
 
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  • #93
I don't think this is what I am looking for. I mean, people makes mistakes all the time, both in mathematics and in physics. So these corrections are not unexpected.

What I was looking for was an accepted standard practice of mathematics in physics. If you look at the first post, it isn't about someone making a math mistake, but rather the whole accepted and common practice of using math that is "at fault".

Zz.
 
  • #94
Then I would give the example of renormalization in quantum field theory. It is an accepted standard practice to perform renormalization using totally unjustified mathematical steps (Feynman integral, perturbative expansion, cutoffs, counterterms, etc.). These unjustified mathematical steps are presented as "black magic that works." For example, one computes the cross-section of scattering of photons on electrons as a perturbative asymptotic expansion in the fine structure constant \alpha. This would make sense if the cross-section were a well-defined function of that constant, say \sigma(\alpha); then we can certainly compute the asymptotic expansion of \sigma(\alpha) at small \alpha. However, the cross-section is actually undefined as a function of the coupling constant; only the asymptotic expansion is defined by ad hoc tricks (each term of the perturbative expansion is a divergent integral that needs to be replaced by a convergent integral in some way). This is how things have been for the last 50 years in mainstream high energy physics. There is by now a growing body of mathematically rigorous QFT work that will probably soon culminate in a book (say in 20 years or so) showing how to compute "renormalized" quantities without fraudulent mathematical operations. Maybe. But in any case, the "black magic" of renormalization has been accepted and remains in the curricula everywhere.

Now the catch is that we actually do not know whether the "black magic" works and why. All we know is experimental agreement in certain theories (perturbative electroweak + some QCD calculations). But we do not have experiments in quantum gravity, and we do not have a good handle on the nonperturbative QFT regimes. If there are several different methods of performing renormalization, we do not know which method is "more correct". For example, there is Pauli-Villars regularization, dimensional regularization, zeta-function regularization, momentum cutoff regularization, and maybe other methods. There are some cases (some theories of gravity + matter fields) when different methods of renormalization give different results. Since all these methods are "black magic", we have no idea which result is correct and why the results are different. This means that we have no way of finding predictions of a given quantum field theory unless by some happy coincidence all our regularization methods give the same result. But even in that case we still don't know whether the result is correct. (What if the "black magic" is wrong, but the theory is also wrong, in such a way that some calculations by accident give correct results that agree with some limited set of experiments?) This is a very unsatisfactory state of affairs.
 
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  • #95
explain said:
Then I would give the example of renormalization in quantum field theory. It is an accepted standard practice to perform renormalization using totally unjustified mathematical steps (Feynman integral, perturbative expansion, cutoffs, counterterms, etc.). These unjustified mathematical steps are presented as "black magic that works." For example, one computes the cross-section of scattering of photons on electrons as a perturbative asymptotic expansion in the coupling constant. This would make sense if the cross-section were a well-defined function of that constant of which we compute the asymptotic expansion. However, the cross-section is actually undefined as a function of the coupling constant; only the asymptotic expansion is defined by ad hoc tricks (each term of the perturbative expansion is a divergent integral that needs to be replaced by a convergent integral in some way). This is how things have been for the last 50 years in mainstream high energy physics. There is by now a growing body of mathematically rigorous QFT work that will probably soon culminate in a book (say in 20 years or so) showing how to compute "renormalized" quantities without fraudulent mathematical operations. Maybe. But in any case, the "black magic" of renormalization has been accepted and remains in the curricula everywhere.

This occurs in condensed matter physics as well, and this is rather a well-known "problem". But is this done unknowingly, though? Or is this done rather out of necessity? And in physics, there are many "ad hoc" introduction. One would say plugging in the fundamental constants into anything is an ad hoc process. And the whole field of phenomenology might even be loosely termed as that. I don't see this as being wrong, because the "guide" here has always been the physics and the empirical results.

I can even bring one example very easily in which I am intimately connected to right now since that's what I'm looking into. The field-emission process has been very much described by the Fowler-Nordheim equation. In fact, with very little variation, it is used in many application, from SEM, to the new flat-panel displays. Yet, if you look carefully at the FN-model, it makes a number of important simplification, the first of which is that the working temperature is very close to T=0K! It also makes a very important assumption that the applied field or the effective field at the field emitter is very much smaller than the work function of the metal. These and a number of other assumptions that are not as crucial, allowed for an analytical equation to be derived.

Yet, even with such assumptions, it is used in a wide range of conditions in which those two assumptions are not satisfied. Many applications use field emitters that are at hundreds of degrees celsius, while others are in field up to the scale of MV/m. Yet, the FN model is STILL useful in extracting the important aspects of the system, so much so that devices can be designed using it! For that they are used for, the FN model is as good as any.

But yet, for many, this is a "mathematical error" being propagated. I don't. I see it as a simplification of the physical description of a phenomena to make it usable, and usable accurately enough.

Zz.
 
  • #96
What you are saying is that an approximation is used beyond the range of its validity, just because a more precise computation is too complicated. This is a different story. What I meant to say is that the "black magic" of renormalization is not even presented as anything different from the usual "physical" nonrigorous calculation.

Many physicists do not think that renormalization is ill-defined but say after Feynman, "shut up and calculate!" These physicists have been taught hundreds of useful facts using either wrong or almost wrong mathematics, and they have been made insensitive to it. Other physicists try to invent "physical" arguments that "show" that the Feynman integral or the "black magic" of renormalization make sense somehow in terms of "physical interpretation". For example, one can "calculate" 1-1+1-1+... by writing

1-1+1-1+...=\left.\frac{1}{1-x}\right|_{x=-1}=\frac{1}{2}.

This "calculation" is quite meaningless, but I am sure there are some cases where the "result" 1/2 can be useful. Imagine a physicist confronted with this "calculation." The physicist might say something like, "Well, in this case we need the analytic continuation of this series to x=-1, which takes care of the singularity, and we do not expect a singularity for physical reasons, so we need to remove it... let's check this against the experimental result..." Many physicists are in denial or insensitive to the fact that their routinely done calculations are mathematically quite meaningless.
 
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  • #97
It is a different thing to face a problem to which no rigor mathematical theory exists yet, than to distort already existing mathematics and to do logical mistakes. I was complaining about the latter. (edit: I mean that I don't see a point in complaining about renormalization)
 
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  • #98
hello, explain. Your post #92 looks interesting! I'll have to take a closer look at those things.
 
  • #99
hello, jostpuur. You seem to be interested in the lack of rigorous mathematics in physics. I am trying to show examples where physicists proceed regardless of nonrigorous mathematics. The examples I showed are not simply mistakes in calculations but mistakes that originated from lack of understanding of certain mathematical issues.

My post about renormalization was a response to ZapperZ's question about something that is "accepted standard practice" in physics but is mathematically incorrect.
 
  • #100
The way I see it, physicists knowingly use "bad math", so they can tell you "it works here because we're making an approximation" or some such. For example, when instead of an sum (big sigma, forget what it's called), you use an integral, because the number of particles you are integrating over is so huge it roughly works out.

They're not doing it because they don't know any better, they are doing it because it makes life a lot easier, and they acknowledge the limitations.
 
  • #101
What's the opposite color of blue?
Well the opposite of the oppisite in true-infinity wouldn't be blue but it would be blue. Both but both in two difrent way's. this might not make sences or relate to this thread, but this would be more funny than math. which them stating that would make it relate to this thread.. but hey wait it wasnt but then it was? chaos? or control of perception of chaos through means of understanding what makese it chaos so its no longer chaos. :D
 
  • #102
Poop-Loops said:
The way I see it, physicists knowingly use "bad math", so they can tell you "it works here because we're making an approximation" or some such. For example, when instead of an sum (big sigma, forget what it's called), you use an integral, because the number of particles you are integrating over is so huge it roughly works out.

They're not doing it because they don't know any better, they are doing it because it makes life a lot easier, and they acknowledge the limitations.

Make a gauge, For example it couldn't be any lower than 2 in any way shape or form under any reason, then say it couldn't be any higher than 8 for the same reason's. you wouldn't need to known the exact number unless you making somthing that's why using A,B,C and D for subs are easy don't need to be right just know what's wrong
 
  • #103
Mathematicians make fun of physicist, physicist make fun of engineers, engineer make fun of computer scientist,

see the connection?
 
  • #104
Who make fun of mathematicians?
 
  • #105
People with girlfriends.
 
  • #106
True. :smile:
 
  • #107
I'm writing this up quick so forgive the lack of quotes when I address certain claims. I believe I've vaguely heard of explain's first example, which is a very good one. The last two are very disturbing indeed. Which brings me to the critique on renormalisation practices. The messy asymptotics can be nausiating I agree, however certain regularization techniques used are mathematically quite legitimate. For example zeta regularization and Pauli-Villars regularization among others. The calculation of #96 is valid under a few summation senses. We may also take it as the value of the Dirichlet eta at the origin from zeta regularization.
What must be eradicated is the continued ignorance practising physicists have on these procedures. By blundering on the commutativity of a regularization, the physicist ends up with wrong Casimir energies for one instance.
Furthermore, this approximation warfare going on in this thread is not what I am concerned of. As a true mathematician one is bound by powers of definition and truth. If in their often necessary approximations, were physicists to use O-notation at the end or even a humble ~ instead of strict equality(=), the subtleties would surely add to rigour more than most while appeasing Poincare for his remarkable work.
Yet things are not to stop there, explain's latter two examples speak volumes of the troubles with physicist mathematics today. Swallow your lack of subtlety and compute, with rigour and understanding.
 
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  • #108
As a physics student, I've always wanted to have mathematical rigor myself.

I don't think, however, that it's required for most jobs in the field (well not the degree we find ideal). I'm assuming this is something more important to theoretical physicists... who had better have mathematical rigor or else don't mind selling out to the entertainment industry. I'm also assuming that there are far less theoretical physicists than experimentalists. This makes mathematical rigor less significant to physics in academics. Also, it would be arrogant for a mathematician to assume that they know more about physics because of their rigor. All that time we don't waste on math is spent understanding physics, which is not math. If the programs (math and physics) are to be approximately equivalent, then you can't teach all the math (proofs, advanced calc, and abstract algebra namely) as well as the physics.
 
  • #109
Well Pythagorean, you're modern physics acts in the framework it does thanks to the efforts of a mathematician, namely Hilbert; who claimed what was then an inconvenient truth(what with mathematics and physics taking on different paths as compared with the times of Euler, Gauss, Newton, etc.): clearly physics is too difficult for physicists!

Rigour allows us to explore phenomena of physics at their most extremal conditions. Further quite contrary to your notion of 'wasting time on the math', today's calculation savvy experimentalist is best off getting his math right the first time rather than 'wasting' time in revisiting and correcting ill formed equations.
Our understanding of a subject is reflected solely by what kind of mathematical characterization we can give it. The more mathematical the better understood.
That is why if a grand unified theory of reality is to be formed it will be a purely mathematical description.
In fact this holds true as we go into the facets of prevailing physics. Quantum theory and relativity are more mathematically inclined than Newtonian physics, whereas string theories are even more so and so on.
In that sense physics is simply a particular and admittedly subjectively interesting case of the very many considerable in mathematics. Since such generalization is uncomfortable to most we have a separate field that goes by 'physics'.
 
  • #110
yasiru89 said:
Since such generalization is uncomfortable to most we have a separate field that goes by 'physics'.

HA! you're trolling me with this one, I mean... seriously... did you spell separate incorrectly on purpose too? Clever.

I shouldn't have said "wasted time" but the point I'm making is still valid. Physics is not mathematics.

I plan to double major in math and physics because I don't like not understanding steps that are hand-waved in derivations. What you don't seem to accept is that we wouldn't get through the physics material if we studied mathematical rigor. We'd be mathematicians clueless about its practical applications to physical phenomena (which is what we're interested in).

Somebody put a list here earlier..

paraphrasing: mathees make fun of physees make fun of engees, etc...

I see the hierarchy the other way around. I envy the engineer who can fix his own fridge and car, and I have no clue what draws people to abstract mathematical concepts that have nothing to do with our physical reality; just not my thing... I want to learn mathematical rigor to be able to make better physical predictions.

Good on Hilbert, I'm proud of him (I don't say that in jest either). There's an abstract mathematical concept that a physicist was able to apply to models of our physical reality. It doesn't invalidate Bohr's postulates. It's a perfect example of indirect collaboration between the fields. Lucky for them, they didn't have the internet to argue complacently about their fields on. They just did good work in their fields and contributed to a significant explosion in science and technology along with a lot of other mathematicians and physicists. I'd personally love to work with a mathematician on a project... probably not an arrogant one who saw physics as inferior though. Doesn't sound too constructive.
 
  • #111
A resent discussion about complex conjugates in some other threads reminded me of one strange thing with the Dirac's field. I'll first show why the Lagrangian density

<br /> \mathcal{L}(\psi) = \overline{\psi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi<br />

with the action principle implies the Dirac equation. Let \xi(x) be some arbitrary variation, that vanishes at the end points of some time interval [t_1,t_2]. We then demand

<br /> 0 = D_{\alpha} \int d^4x\; \mathcal{L}(\psi + \alpha\xi)\Big|_{\alpha=0}<br /> \;=\; D_{\alpha} \int d^4x\;\Big((\overline{\psi} \;+\; \alpha\overline{\xi})\big(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} \;-\; m\big)(\psi \;+\; \alpha\xi)\Big)\Big|_{\alpha=0}<br />

<br /> = \int d^4x\;\Big( \overline{\xi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} \;-\; m)\psi \;+\; \overline{\psi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} \;-\; m)\xi\Big)<br /> = \int d^4x\;\Big(i\gamma^{\mu}(\overline{\xi}\partial_{\mu}\psi \;+\; \overline{\psi}\partial_{\mu}\xi) \;-\; 2m\textrm{Re}(\overline{\xi}\psi)\Big)<br />

When we perform integration by parts to move the second derivative like this \overline{\psi}\partial_{\mu}\xi\to -(\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi})\xi, we obtain

<br /> = 2\int d^4x\;\textrm{Re}\Big(\overline{\xi}\big(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}\psi - m\psi\big)\Big)<br />

and we get the Dirac's equation

<br /> (i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi = 0.<br />

However, this is not the way physicists derive the Dirac's equation. Physicists way goes like this. We first derive the Euler-Lagrange equation

<br /> \partial_{\mu}\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}(\phi)}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\phi)} - \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}(\phi)}{\partial\phi} = 0<br />

for real valued fields, and then assume, that we can use it for complex fields, by assuming that the complex conjugate \phi^* is constant with respect to \phi. This assumption enables one to use derivation formulas like D|z|^2 = D (z^* z) = z^* which seem to be so ridiculously wrong, that one might think it is impossible to ever get correct results with them. However, this turns out to be a false assumption. See how IT WORKS!

We have

<br /> \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial\psi} = -\overline{\psi}m,<br /> \quad\quad\quad<br /> \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\psi)} = \overline{\psi}i\gamma^{\mu}<br />

so the Euler-Lagrange equation is

<br /> \partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi}i\gamma^{\mu} + m\overline{\psi} = 0<br />

By taking the complex conjugate of this, we get

<br /> -i(\gamma^{\mu})^{\dagger}\gamma^0 \partial_{\mu}\psi + m\gamma^0\psi = 0<br />

Here the knowledge (\gamma^0)^{\dagger} = \gamma^0 was used. By multiplying with -\gamma^0 from left, and using identities \gamma^0 \gamma^0 = 1 and \gamma^0(\gamma^{\mu})^{\dagger}\gamma^0 = \gamma^{\mu} we get

<br /> (i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi = 0<br />

which is the Dirac's equation again. Okey, so it works...

Why do physicists want to do it this way? Often the answer is that they want to do things the easier way. I'm not fully convinced the physicists way is easier in this case, it's a matter of opinion. For example you need to know some properties of gamma matrices, which you don't need to know when you do the variations manually.

It is somewhat puzzling how the assumption that complex conjugates can be assumed to be constants works like this. According to my intuition it shouldn't work for anything, because it is plain wrong. But surprisingly, I find it comforting that actually this assumption doesn't usually work! Suppose we used the Lagrangian

<br /> \mathcal{L} \;=\; \frac{i}{2}\overline{\psi}\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}\psi \;-\; \frac{i}{2}(\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi})\gamma^{\mu}\psi \;-\; m\overline{\psi}\psi\quad \Big(= \textrm{Re}\big(i\overline{\psi}\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}\psi \;-\; m\overline{\psi}\psi\big)\Big)<br />

The action principle gives precisely the same equation of motion from this Lagrangian, but the assumption of \overline{\psi} being constant and the Euler-Lagrange equations do not, because you get the factor 1/2 wrong.

(ARGH! EDIT EDIT: I just noted I made a mistake here. It is still working! Noooooo... :cry:)

So in oder to get the correct equation of motion the physicists way, you first need to "choose" the "correct form" of the Lagrangian!

Peskin & Schroeder describe the derivation of Dirac's equation like this

The correct, Lorenzt-invariant Dirac Lagrangian is therefore
<br /> \mathcal{L}_{\textrm{Dirac}} = \overline{\psi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi.<br />
The Euler-Lagrange equation for \overline{\psi} (or \psi^{\dagger}) immediately yields the Dirac equation in the form (3.31); the Euler-Lagrange equation for \psi gives the same equation, in Hermitian-conjugate form:
<br /> -i\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi}\gamma^{\mu} - m\overline{\psi} = 0.<br />

I disagree with the statement a little bit. The Euler-Lagrange equation for \overline{\psi} doesn't immediately imply the correct result because you have

<br /> \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi})} = 0.<br />

You need to first, with integration by parts, to move the derivative from \psi onto the \overline{\psi}, and then apply the Euler-Lagrange equations. If you give a physicists an exercise where he is supposed to derive the Dirac's equation like P&S instruct, he will first do the integration by parts, and then use the Euler-Lagrange equations, and then get the correct results. If I ask "why do you do the integration by parts first?", the answer is "because otherwise you don't get the correct result".

You cannot derive the equation of motion the physicists way unless you already know the result before!

BUT WHY?

Wouldn't it be so much easier for everyone if we just wrote 0=D_{\alpha} \int dt\; L(\psi+\alpha\xi)\Big|_{\alpha=0}, and understood what we are doing? Why do physicists want to start making this simple thing into so much more complicated?

It seems that the authors of the physics books think, that the readers are so intelligent, that it doesn't matter what they write into the books, because the readers are not going to develop major misunderstanding in anyway. This has been a fatal mistake IMO. I once tried to ask about this from one physicist, and in the end he was explaining to me, that similarly as \textrm{Re}(\phi) and \textrm{Im}(\phi) are independent variables, also \phi and \phi^* are independent variables. In other words, he was explaining, that if x and y can be chosen independently, then components of (x,y) do not fix the components of (x,-y). Despite this, he also understood, that components of \phi^* actually do fix the components of \phi, but still on the other hand, they did not fix each others components, because they were describing "physical dynamics". They are always these "physical arguments", where I get lost.
 
  • #112
jostpuur said:
for real valued fields, and then assume, that we can use it for complex fields, by assuming that the complex conjugate \phi^* is constant with respect to \phi. This assumption enables one to use derivation formulas like D|z|^2 = D (z^* z) = z^* which seem to be so ridiculously wrong,
Two things:
(1) The variables z and z* are, in fact, analytically independent: the only analytic function satisfying f(z,z*)=0 is the zero function
(2) I believe it is fairly common (although I couldn't tell you where I first encountered it) when dealing with nonanalytic functions, to define the operator

\frac{\partial}{\partial z} = \frac{1}{2} \left( \frac{\partial}{\partial x} - i \frac{\partial}{\partial y} \right)

and similarly for the derivative w.r.t. z*. This does generalize the complex derivative, and gives us the identity that a function f is analytic if and only if \partial f(z) / \partial z^* = 0
 
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  • #113
does anyone have more information on the topics explain mentioned, specifically the "black magic" in QFT?
 
  • #114
jostpuur said:
A resent discussion about complex conjugates in some other threads reminded me of one strange thing with the Dirac's field. I'll first show why the Lagrangian density

<br /> \mathcal{L}(\psi) = \overline{\psi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi<br />

with the action principle implies the Dirac equation. Let \xi(x) be some arbitrary variation, that vanishes at the end points of some time interval [t_1,t_2]. We then demand

<br /> 0 = D_{\alpha} \int d^4x\; \mathcal{L}(\psi + \alpha\xi)\Big|_{\alpha=0}<br /> \;=\; D_{\alpha} \int d^4x\;\Big((\overline{\psi} \;+\; \alpha\overline{\xi})\big(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} \;-\; m\big)(\psi \;+\; \alpha\xi)\Big)\Big|_{\alpha=0}<br />

<br /> = \int d^4x\;\Big( \overline{\xi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} \;-\; m)\psi \;+\; \overline{\psi}(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} \;-\; m)\xi\Big)<br /> = \int d^4x\;\Big(i\gamma^{\mu}(\overline{\xi}\partial_{\mu}\psi \;+\; \overline{\psi}\partial_{\mu}\xi) \;-\; 2m\textrm{Re}(\overline{\xi}\psi)\Big)<br />

When we perform integration by parts to move the second derivative like this \overline{\psi}\partial_{\mu}\xi\to -(\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi})\xi, we obtain

<br /> = 2\int d^4x\;\textrm{Re}\Big(\overline{\xi}\big(i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}\psi - m\psi\big)\Big)<br />

and we get the Dirac's equation

<br /> (i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi = 0.<br />

However, this is not the way physicists derive the Dirac's equation. Physicists way goes like this. We first derive the Euler-Lagrange equation

<br /> \partial_{\mu}\frac{\partial\mathcal{L}(\phi)}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\phi)} - \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}(\phi)}{\partial\phi} = 0<br />

for real valued fields, and then assume, that we can use it for complex fields, by assuming that the complex conjugate \phi^* is constant with respect to \phi. This assumption enables one to use derivation formulas like D|z|^2 = D (z^* z) = z^* which seem to be so ridiculously wrong, that one might think it is impossible to ever get correct results with them. However, this turns out to be a false assumption. See how IT WORKS!

We have

<br /> \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial\psi} = -\overline{\psi}m,<br /> \quad\quad\quad<br /> \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\psi)} = \overline{\psi}i\gamma^{\mu}<br />

so the Euler-Lagrange equation is

<br /> \partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi}i\gamma^{\mu} + m\overline{\psi} = 0<br />

By taking the complex conjugate of this, we get

<br /> -i(\gamma^{\mu})^{\dagger}\gamma^0 \partial_{\mu}\psi + m\gamma^0\psi = 0<br />

Here the knowledge (\gamma^0)^{\dagger} = \gamma^0 was used. By multiplying with -\gamma^0 from left, and using identities \gamma^0 \gamma^0 = 1 and \gamma^0(\gamma^{\mu})^{\dagger}\gamma^0 = \gamma^{\mu} we get

<br /> (i\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu} - m)\psi = 0<br />

which is the Dirac's equation again. Okey, so it works...

Why do physicists want to do it this way? Often the answer is that they want to do things the easier way. I'm not fully convinced the physicists way is easier in this case, it's a matter of opinion. For example you need to know some properties of gamma matrices, which you don't need to know when you do the variations manually.

It is somewhat puzzling how the assumption that complex conjugates can be assumed to be constants works like this. According to my intuition it shouldn't work for anything, because it is plain wrong. But surprisingly, I find it comforting that actually this assumption doesn't usually work! Suppose we used the Lagrangian

<br /> \mathcal{L} \;=\; \frac{i}{2}\overline{\psi}\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}\psi \;-\; \frac{i}{2}(\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi})\gamma^{\mu}\psi \;-\; m\overline{\psi}\psi\quad \Big(= \textrm{Re}\big(i\overline{\psi}\gamma^{\mu}\partial_{\mu}\psi \;-\; m\overline{\psi}\psi\big)\Big)<br />

The action principle gives precisely the same equation of motion from this Lagrangian, but the assumption of \overline{\psi} being constant and the Euler-Lagrange equations do not, because you get the factor 1/2 wrong.

(ARGH! EDIT EDIT: I just noted I made a mistake here. It is still working! Noooooo... :cry:)

So in oder to get the correct equation of motion the physicists way, you first need to "choose" the "correct form" of the Lagrangian!

Peskin & Schroeder describe the derivation of Dirac's equation like this



I disagree with the statement a little bit. The Euler-Lagrange equation for \overline{\psi} doesn't immediately imply the correct result because you have

<br /> \frac{\partial\mathcal{L}}{\partial(\partial_{\mu}\overline{\psi})} = 0.<br />

You need to first, with integration by parts, to move the derivative from \psi onto the \overline{\psi}, and then apply the Euler-Lagrange equations. If you give a physicists an exercise where he is supposed to derive the Dirac's equation like P&S instruct, he will first do the integration by parts, and then use the Euler-Lagrange equations, and then get the correct results. If I ask "why do you do the integration by parts first?", the answer is "because otherwise you don't get the correct result".

You cannot derive the equation of motion the physicists way unless you already know the result before!

BUT WHY?

Wouldn't it be so much easier for everyone if we just wrote 0=D_{\alpha} \int dt\; L(\psi+\alpha\xi)\Big|_{\alpha=0}, and understood what we are doing? Why do physicists want to start making this simple thing into so much more complicated?

It seems that the authors of the physics books think, that the readers are so intelligent, that it doesn't matter what they write into the books, because the readers are not going to develop major misunderstanding in anyway. This has been a fatal mistake IMO. I once tried to ask about this from one physicist, and in the end he was explaining to me, that similarly as \textrm{Re}(\phi) and \textrm{Im}(\phi) are independent variables, also \phi and \phi^* are independent variables. In other words, he was explaining, that if x and y can be chosen independently, then components of (x,y) do not fix the components of (x,-y). Despite this, he also understood, that components of \phi^* actually do fix the components of \phi, but still on the other hand, they did not fix each others components, because they were describing "physical dynamics". They are always these "physical arguments", where I get lost.

Physicist do use least action principle :b...

but if we want to write down dirac equation in the way he did discovered we have to use both math and physical principles...

i don't really understand where this topic is going? :(
 
  • #115
ice109 said:
does anyone have more information on the topics explain mentioned, specifically the "black magic" in QFT?

It's called black magic by people that read Peskin & Schroeder since they present it poorly (sweeping infinities under the rug). The black magic tricks are physically motivated. Only seeing half of the logic, mathematicians typically jump to the wrong conclusion that physicists are just doing bad math.

I will illustrate with one example-- infrared divergence. There is no simple throwing away an infinity here. One must realize that the theory is not valid for all energies, there are assumptions that are being violated. Issues such as those of quantum gravity would creep in. Based upon common sense we know that any field theory we right down is only valid within a finite energy range. Introducing a cutoff is nothing more than making explicit what was before an implicit assumption of the theory. The solutions now depend on a cutoff, but it's not a trick to get rid of an infinity, it's assigning a variable to represent the failure of the theory beyond that point. Every theory has limits of validity.

When mathematicians rant about the terrible math that physics does, they commonly make implicit the assumption that the mathematical model is an exact representation of nature (which of course it's not). They do offer valid criticism as well, which I'll get to in my next post.
 
  • #116
I've seen something in this thread that's very common-- math methods textbooks and classes are terrible! There really is no amount of apologizing that can be done for cramming in partial differential equations, complex analysis, group theory, approximate and numerical methods etc etc in a one semester course. Methods are taught with either no reason, or silly hand waving arguments.

If you are a theorist, get that math degree as a second major instead. If you are an experimentalist you probably need to be more familiar with the broad concepts and not the specific methods. Just say no to math methods courses!
 
  • #117
For what it is worth, my proffessor in Math Methods of Physics class often said if a mathematician were looking at this he or she would slap me but in physics, it works so we use it.

Also, I know there are a lot of strange exceptions and rules we learned in math for certain theorems (Stokes comes to mind) but when we did it in physics, we said not to worry about them becuase they were either unimportant or not physical. Or, sometimes rather than go into the rules, we said something to the affect that use the Right hand rule as a rule of thumb (pun not intended) for the sign.
 
  • #118
DavidWhitbeck said:
There really is no amount of apologizing that can be done for cramming in partial differential equations, complex analysis, group theory, approximate and numerical methods etc etc in a one semester course.

This is the very reason why the University of Buffalo does not teach a math methods course at the undergraduate level, they make their students take a two semester sequence in applied math which covers advanced multi-variate calculus and PDE's only... If you want to learn complex variables, group theory etc... they are separate courses. By the way, the grad course in Math Methods used to be applied math, Fourier series, Differential Equations, etc in the first semester, then a full semester of Linear algebra and Group Theory.
 

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