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B Noob with some questions on Modeling Earth

  1. Apr 5, 2017 #1
    as i mentioned im a huge noob in the reals of math and physics, but if anyone can explain things to me as a noob that would be awesome.

    magnetism had always fascinated me so i think thats where i want to dive into.

    i am curious about experiments or ideas on a model of the earth, and inert gases. i want to know if its possible to get a solid sphere to have magnetic poles like the earth has. then if it can be set up in a vacuum lab setting except for a substantial amount of inert gas, then have the sphere spinning on its axis at different rpm's and see what happens.

    maybe at the start, just have He gas and do a wide range of rpm's, from slow to super fast

    then later add in other inert gases. anyways i would love to know what might happen or how i could do this experiment.
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Apr 5, 2017 #2

    jedishrfu

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  4. Apr 5, 2017 #3

    mfb

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    Nothing special will happen. If you put the spinning sphere in a suitable magnetic field, you can levitate it, otherwise you have to suspend it in a different way.
     
  5. Apr 5, 2017 #4
    yes im sure you have to suspend it, but im not asking about having a sphere in a magnetic field, im asking to make a sphere that is magnetic with N and S polar ends like the earth. thanks for the link, i will check it out!
     
  6. Apr 5, 2017 #5

    mfb

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    Every permanent magnet in spherical shape is a sphere with two magnetic poles. There is nothing special about the spherical shape either.

    I just suggested the external field to levitate this permanent magnet. That is the only somewhat interesting application I see.
     
  7. Apr 5, 2017 #6
    what i want to know is if the spinning of a dense sphere with magnetic poles and field in the presence of at first inert gas if they will react and be drawn towards the sphere. with a regular magnet on a flat surface you can see the field lines with metal shavings. but if its spherical and not 2 dimensional, and spinning how will the lines behave? how will this affect inert gas? how will it affect polarized gas? i guess you dont really see what im curious about, although i think jedishrfu is understanding what i asked about. maybe this can show how saturns rings form, or how our planet attracted gas from the early forming solar system, or maybe it can show the gravity is somehow connected to super high rpms of a sphereical electromagnet.

    no need to insult me.
     
  8. Apr 5, 2017 #7

    i read the article its from 2008, do you know if there is anything about his results?
     
  9. Apr 5, 2017 #8

    mfb

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    Where do you see an insult?

    If the magnetic field is rotating aligned with its axis, the rotation does not change the magnetic field. You get a little bit of diamagnetism in your gas. If the axes are not aligned, you get a time-dependent magnetic field, again with a completely negligible impact on the slightly diamagnetic gas.
    No, not at all, and wild speculation doesn't help.
     
  10. Apr 5, 2017 #9
    so you have already done this experiment or you think nothing will happen? even if i was a PhD in all the fields of physics does that mean i stop asking questions?

    if these experiments have been done can you please link me the info so i can read about it instead of getting your dead end answers.

    are our poles aligned? do our magnetic field lines stay perfectly parallel from pole to pole? what about how our poles migrate and flip?
     
  11. Apr 5, 2017 #10
    Presently, magnetic fields are very well understood by physicists and engineers. There really isn't much to gain from this kind of unfocused experiment. Perhaps you long for the days of Faraday or Ampere when there was a lot to discover by simply observing phenomena. But those days are mostly over, at least for classical magnetism. We already know what will happen when you spin a magnet.

    I do not mean to denigrate the work of earlier scientists. Just that the frontier has moved. And so we don't bother to run certain experiments anymore except for educational purposes. And we tend to pick educational experiments where we already know something interesting is going to happen. Because what's the point in running an educational experiment where nothing happens?
     
  12. Apr 5, 2017 #11
    ok then why on the first link about a Professor of Physics at the university of maryland was attempting some of what im asking about in 2008?

    and if you and so many others know what happen when you spin a magnet can you direct me to where i can read about it? maybe a youtube vid?
     
  13. Apr 5, 2017 #12
    You don't have to check if every apple falls down. We have seen enough to be quite confident that it will.
    Same with your experiment. Magnetism and inert gases are understood well enough to predict the result without actually trying.

    Earth is not a simple magnet. The creation of magnetic field in the molten core is a fairly complicated process, but Earth's atmosphere has no effect on it.
     
  14. Apr 5, 2017 #13
    yeah and gravity is still a theory....special relativity is still a theory....yes plenty of math to back it up but they are still theories. if you dont want to help me out with links to the experiments and research that has been done then why reply?

    you act as if i want to play with marble size magnets and spin then on a potters wheel. and no you dont know what will happen to inert gas in a vacuum with a large dense sphere travelling at super high speeds that has a magnetic field....you dont know so stop acting like you do. the first response showed that a Dr in Physics who works at the University of Maryland was trying an idea similar to what im asking about in 2008.....that doesnt sound like its that well understood and known about for YEARS.

    dont be a jerk, show me where all this has been documented and researched or dont reply with your know it all attitude please
     
  15. Apr 5, 2017 #14
  16. Apr 5, 2017 #15

    mfb

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    I have spun permanent magnets in gas, with and without levitation. But that is not the point. As @SlowThinker mentioned already: To predict that an apple will fall down you do not have to check every apple ever grown. After you observed a few thousand you can be reasonably sure that all regular apples will fall down in the same way all others did.

    You can google "magnetic levitation", "levitron", "levitation toy" or similar things if you want to see videos of spinning magnets, but you can also get a magnet yourself and spin it.
    Don't stop asking questions. Asking questions is great! But asking questions only makes sense if you are interested in the answers. Sometimes the answer is just "nothing will happen", and no matter how much you dislike the answer - that is the universe we live in.
    He did not try what you described. He studied how a rotating sphere of molten metal can generate a magnetic field. That is completely different from the question you asked.
    A scientific theory is the best we can ever get, and it has nothing to do with the way the word is sometimes used in everyday language. What does "still a theory" mean?
    I do know what will happen: Nothing special. The reaction to gas particles to magnetic fields is incredibly well-studied, and the Maxwell equations have been tested in countless experiments with incredible precision. An apple falling up would have been noted hundred years ago.

    https://journals.aps.org/pr/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev.24.418
    http://chemistrynotmystery.blogspot.de/2014/09/why-is-o2-paramagnetic-while-n2.html
    http://www.periodictable.com/Properties/A/MagneticType.html

    And here are some more recent research papers: This is the level of current studies.
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1006.5179
    https://arxiv.org/abs/1006.4705
    http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0022-3719/19/36/016
    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01691749
     
  17. Apr 5, 2017 #16
    hopefully more helpful people can respond....another thing i was thinking, so you have a magnetic sphere, you drop lots of metal fillings on it, then spin the sphere on its axis. do the shavings come off? do they show the magnetic lines? do they bend?
     
  18. Apr 5, 2017 #17
    Your original post asked for a solid sphere. The experiment in the response is using a molten metal sphere to try to understand the dynamo effect, which is the source of the Earth's magnetic field. There is a big difference. Usually, when scientists run an experiment, they have a pretty good idea of what's going to happen, but they want to test the details. Perhaps, see if the theory matches very well or if there are small deviations. They don't just run something and see what happens.

    It's not useful for you to read current experiments before you learn the basic textbook stuff. That's why people aren't just giving you links to papers. Really, all that is for is to quiet you down. But it's better for you to rethink how you learn. The subject you need to learn about is electromagnetism. You seem to distrust theories. But theories our our best interpretation of a large number of experimental results.
     
  19. Apr 5, 2017 #18

    mfb

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    If you spin it slowly (or don't spin it), they will just stick to the surface of the sphere, especially close to the poles. If you spin it fast enough, centrifugal force will win and they will be flung away and hit the walls. If the walls are close enough they might get attracted by the sphere again, fly to it and get accelerated again, only to be flung away again.
     
  20. Apr 5, 2017 #19

    fresh_42

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    By the risk to insult you: You know, that we do not allow web-talk and require the use of capital letters whenever indicated?
     
  21. Apr 5, 2017 #20

    jedishrfu

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    Please be kinder here. There are a lot of people helping a lot more than is necessary for this kind of question. You have questions that even you yourself can't answer and yet you expect us to dumb it down so that you can understand and then when you still don't understand you just can't say we are not being helpful.

    Changing gears, with respect to the baby earth research,of Prof Lathrop apparently it's still ongoing. Here's a more recent article from 2016. You might have to contact him or seek out his webpage if any describing his research and its status.

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/spinning-core
     
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