News Obama's Controversial Gesture Towards Clinton: A Political Analysis

[Evo]

The hoots begin about half a second before the finger appears. When I watched the speech - which was a lot longer than the 30 second clip linked here - I grinned at the remark too. And I didn't notice the finger. If you've watched Obama's speeches, you'll notice that he scratches his face quite a lot. In this same speech he scratched his face thrice with 3 different fingers in a span of 3 minutes. And he was laughing and having fun the whole time during the speech, not just after the middle finger scratch.

I hope you've watched more than just the clip linked in this thread.

No, I haven't, so my bad if I missed something and this was taken out of context, thanks for bringing that up, I will have to look for the rest of the speech.

 

[phoenixy]

What the hell, who in the their right mind would actually believe this bull crap from the right wing media? No wonder the political mud swing never stop. It actually works, just look at the response to this thread.

If we really want to discuss profanity or inappropriate action from the candidates, why not start with something indisputable that actually happened? Such as:

... John McCain's temper is well documented. He's called opponents and colleagues "sh*theads," "*ssholes" and in at least one case "a f*cking jerk." ...

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_temper_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't see this as being anything but nonsense. He was scratching his cheek. Okay, from that angle it might have looked a bit like the bird, but his index finger was also extended. Now, this is a physics forum, so might assume that two fingers are approximately equal to one finger, but IMO we can't take this to be a 0th order problem.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Actually it's strange you should mention that, as my lifetime ambition - well apart from visiting every country in the world - is to flip the bird to every leader in the world. Kind of an ultimate expression of contempt for world politics. Childish, but hell something to tell the grand kids.

 

[_Mayday_]

I saw the video - he scratched his cheek. People started cheering when he said Clinton was in her element. Looked to me like that was the joke that he and everyone out there was laughing about - it's what I grinned at too, when I first watched the video of the speech. Besides, the cheering began even before he scratched his cheek.

Gokul, I have to say I agree. I don't think it was intentional, and I think it was just an inocent scratch!

 

[_Mayday_]

I haven't been following this very closely, but whenever I see it they're just taking cheap digs at each other, wether this is due to the media hyping it up I do not know.

 

[TVP45]

Let's see. Last week oil went to $116.00. Copper passed $4.00. Several airplanes announced they were bankrupt. There were several large suicide bombings in Iraq. We discovered Iran had added several thousand centrifuges. Rand announced that 31% of our military has suffered mental illness or TBJ. And we decide the leader of our country based on...flipping the bird?

 

[russ_watters]

Are you serious? Do you actually think someone who is running for president would risk his entire campaign by flipping his opponent off?

Not to be sexist, but there's a strange pattern in this thread.

You're being sexist. I hadn't posted, but I agree with "them" on this one. Of course, I'm a republican, so my opinions about democratic candidates don't really count...

Seriously, though - why do you think McCain has gained so much ground in the national polls over these guys?

[edit] I didn't watch the video, so I don't really know if he did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption he did for the sake of the argument (whether it is ok to be petty and immature).

 

[Art]

It bodes well for Obama's campaign if this is the best his critics can come up with then it shows what a strong candidate he is. Once Obama has the nomination McCain will begin to get the media attention too and given a choice between someone who might have flipped the finger to his somewhat bitter and twisted opponent and someone who doesn't even grasp the most elemental facts of the opposing forces in Iraq I suspect most people with even half a brain will vote for Obama which based on the last election and discounting election fraud might be enough to give him a narrow win

 

[phoenixy]

... And we decide the leader of our country based on...flipping the bird?

It is even better because no one actually flipped the bird. This is modern American politic at its finest absurdity.. Hey but if the GOP keep repeating this lie, it could become the new truthiest talking point.

Bonus pic: thumbs up!
http://stevenberg.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/bush-finger.jpg

 

[Astronuc]

Undecided

It's possible that some folks see him 'flipping' and others do not. Also, it appears to me that under the gun, Obama was feeling a little flustered and scratched his cheek in a way that appears to some to be 'flipping' the finger. I'm not sure, although I tend to agree with Gokul.

I've been told by a teacher that kids to something like that in school.


I understand that Obama scratches his cheek periodically during public addresses, or perhaps debates, which are rather contentious. In other words, what he did is a habit, but the way he did it is controversial and subject to misinterpretation. On the other hand, maybe he did 'flip the finger'. * undecided *


McCain is enjoying the lack of scrutiny at the moment, while Clinton seems to try to trash her opponent. I do think it unfortuate that Obama is responding to Clinton rather than taking the high road. During the debates, they don't need to be talking about the media and the attacks, but rather they need to be addressing the issues, such as the Iraq War and the war on terror (financed off-budget), energy policy, education, health care, taxation and the excessive federal debt, social security (based on government IOU - but they've don't spent it), national security, foreign relations.

So much for the General Welfare and Domestic Tranquility.

 

[cristo]

I'm undecided too; it does look quite accidental, but he sniggers afterwards, but then is this due to his comment or his action?

Either way, I don't think it really matters whether it's intentional or not: the fact is that he is running to be voted to run for the president of the US. If the reaction of the country is as split as it is in this thread, then it will affect things. In fact, anything that happens in the next year is going to affect his campaign, whether it's intentional or not!

 

[BobG]

When he did all of those...stooped to negative campaign tactics, whined, and played the race card, plus flipping off his opponent. And, I have YET to hear from him what he actually plans to do as part of this "change" thing. He talks a big game, but I haven't seen any substance to back it up...no change there, just more of the same (worse, the few things I've heard him "promise" have been phrased in a way that have not promised anything...you could take it any way you wanted...clearly that's his strategy). At least I've heard some specifics from Hillary on what she plans to do and HOW she plans to do it. Still, they've all stooped to the same old dirty campaign tricks that I'm sick and tired of. Frankly, I'm disappointed in the whole bunch of them. I just wish we could get a decent candidate to step up to the plate for a change, but they all got washed out early because apparently the backstabbing and bickering pulls in the campaign dollars...this is a presidential campaign, not the Jerry Springer Show.

Ironically, Jerry Springer started out in politics. He resigned from the city council when a raid of a massage parlor showed that he paid for a prostitute by check. The way he handled the scandal helped him win back his city council seat the next year. In fact, he used the canceled check in his later campaign for governor of Ohio (along with the slogan that Springer wasn't afraid of the truth, even when it hurts), but it surprisingly failed to win the nomination for him.

 

[Astronuc]

I'm undecided too; it does look quite accidental, but he sniggers afterwards, but then is this due to his comment or his action?

The sniggering makes one wonder - certainly. Was he sniggering because he did flip, or didn't flip but then realized the audience might think he did, or was he sniggering because of the audience.

In any event, non-substantive debates are turning into a media circus and that is unbecoming with repsect to such a serious matter, which is the process of electing the next president of the US.


Either way, I share the disappointment of which several have expressed it herein.

 

[russ_watters]

I do think it unfortuate that Obama is responding to Clinton rather than taking the high road. During the debates, they don't need to be talking about the media and the attacks, but rather they need to be addressing the issues, such as the Iraq War and the war on terror (financed off-budget), energy policy, education, health care, taxation and the excessive federal debt, social security (based on government IOU - but they've don't spent it), national security, foreign relations.

I haven't watched much of the debates, but certainly in the last one, the moderators fanned the flames by focusing for so long on the gaffes instead of the issues. Of course, that could just be because the candidates themselves are saying more about each other than about the issues.

 

[W3pcq]

Don't you guys recall McCain yelling F#$% Y&% to a person while in congress. Also threatening reporters. Who do we really need to worry about as far a foreign relations? Assult the wrong leader and you could have a war on your hands.

 

[W3pcq]

In my opinion, the reason Obama wants to run a respectful campaign is because he is afraid that he is too easy a target for negative spins. This way whenever he gets attacked, he can call it a game and say it's childish, and that he wouldn't stoop to that level. Hilary might be playing those cards too if she wasn't so desperate. McCain might be playing those cards too because there many ways to spin him negatively as well.

 

[Werg22]

People should watch the entire video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4"

I think this makes the flipping off hypothesis highly implausible.

I just amazed at the absurdity of the situation.

 

[drankin]

People should watch the entire video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4"

I think this makes the flipping off hypothesis highly implausible.

I just amazed at the absurdity of the situation.

I've just watched it for the fourth time. I assume they have a big screen display in front of him somewhere and if you watch the black man behind him to his right, you see him begin to smile a moment right after Obaman did the "scratch/flip". Nowhere do you see him scratch his face with his middle finger as a course of habit in any other footage. Because of the topic and the appropriate moment one could make such a gesture for effect, I think he really did flip the bird. It isn't "implausible". It fits his dialog perfectly. He did it in such a way to allow deniability. He's no idiot, immature maybe, but not an idiot.

My grandfather loves it I'm sure. The middle finger is our family symbol thanks to him. He greets everyone with it.

Sure, we all reserve the right to flip someone off. It's perfectly human, but not necessarily the kind of display people want in their president. Call it mature restraint.

 

[Astronuc]

Sure, we all reserve the right to flip someone off. It's perfectly human, but not necessarily the kind of display people want in their president. Call it mature restraint.

Not all people flip off someone else, even when angry or upset. It would never occur to me to do that.

 

[W3pcq]

I guess we have three types of candidates one that will think f you and smile, one that will be sly and gesture it but deny it, and one that will flat out say it in your face.

 

[drankin]

I guess we have three types of candidates one that will think f you and smile, one that will be sly and gesture it but deny it, and one that will flat out say it in your face.

Wouldn't you respect someone more saying it to your face rather than being sly or giving you a loaded grin? I know I would.

 

[W3pcq]

I hate loaded grins!

 

[W3pcq]

You can't go around yelling F you to everyone you disagree with and expect to get elected though.

 

[drankin]

You can't go around yelling F you to everyone you disagree with and expect to get elected though.

Of course, and no one actually goes around doing that to "everyone".

 

[lisab]

I had to watch the clip twice to even see it. It's a big stretch to me, but it looks like something Fox News would play over and over and over again.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The sniggering makes one wonder - certainly. Was he sniggering because he did flip, or didn't flip but then realized the audience might think he did, or was he sniggering because of the audience.

The flow seemed perfectly natural to me. He made the comment about Hillary being in her element, the crowd reacted, Obama reacted.

But this is I think the most important point: There is no way to be sure, and there is every reason to think this was nothing but a scratch [to me there is very little doubt], but the problem is that people are willing to assume that this is something based on virtually nothing.

How can anyone logically justify the assumption that this was anything but a scratch? There is virtually NO evidence of this, and what we do have becomes completely subjective. This is logic?

This is the sort of nonsense that gave us Bush, and Iraq! Wise up people!

 

[TVP45]

Would it be OK to merge this thread with the "horoscopes" thread and then we could compare the candidates that way? It might be less speculative than basing an election on a hand gesture that somebody thinks they saw on YouTube.

 

[Astronuc]

People should watch the entire video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlR9DNfqGD4"

This is a longer piece from a speaking engagment in Raleigh, NC, so Clinton is not even present. It would make no sense to flip someone who is not present, so after seeing that, I'd have to conclude he simply scratched his cheek.


Now Obama mentions that it was 45 minutes into the debate before they spoke about any issues. I would have hoped he would have tried to redirect the debate to talk about issues - but the ne probably felt compelled to address the attacks on him. I didn't watch the debate directly.


As for McCain, although I've heard some substantive discussion, I've heard much more empty platitudes.


I'd like to know why members of the Bush administration are making it more difficult for veterans (from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) to get the treatment and benefits to which they are entitled. Such obstruction is unconscionable.

 

[Gokul43201]

Russ, this post makes very little sense to me.

Seriously, though - why do you think McCain has gained so much ground in the national polls over these guys?

[edit] I didn't watch the video, so I don't really know if he did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption he did for the sake of the argument (whether it is ok to be petty and immature).

McCain has gained so much ground because RNC operatives have gone door to door, bribing voters.

[edit] I don't really know if they did or didn't - I'm proceeding on the assumption they did for the sake of the argument.

I can't believe this thread has gone this far, and almost entirely on gross speculation!