Optical-EME for licensed amateur radio operators

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the feasibility and technical considerations of conducting Earth-Moon-Earth (EME) communications using optical frequencies, specifically targeting amateur radio operators. Participants explore various aspects of transmitter and receiver design, modulation techniques, regulatory concerns, and the challenges posed by atmospheric conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes using a one-watt green laser diode for transmission, emphasizing the need for synchronous amplitude modulation and photon counting to detect reflected signals from the Moon.
  • Another suggests on-off modulation with an RF chirp for the laser, highlighting the importance of a stable clock for low phase noise and proposing the use of FFT for noise reduction.
  • Concerns are raised about regulatory issues surrounding laser use, with references to CDRH and FAA guidelines, indicating a complex bureaucratic landscape that may impact operations.
  • Some participants argue that LEDs may provide better signal-to-noise ratios than lasers due to atmospheric scattering, while others defend the advantages of lasers, particularly their peak power capabilities.
  • There is a discussion about the retroreflectors left on the Moon by Apollo missions, with differing views on their effectiveness as true retroreflectors.
  • One participant mentions the potential of using incandescent lamps as an alternative light source, though others counter that their power and modulation capabilities may be inadequate for the task.
  • The impact of the Moon's movement on signal reception is noted, with suggestions that fast transmitted packets might mitigate this issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the effectiveness of different light sources (lasers vs. LEDs vs. incandescent lamps) and the regulatory landscape, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus on the best approach for optical EME communications.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various limitations, including the effects of atmospheric conditions on laser performance, the regulatory complexities surrounding laser use, and the challenges of achieving high bandwidth communications given the Moon's surface characteristics.

Hop-AC8NS
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I am attempting a proof-of-concept demonstration of so-called "moon bounce" or Earth-Moon-Earth (EME) communications at optical frequencies. Hams are allowed to use ANY frequency greater than 275 GHz, with ANY modulation, and the usual 1500 watt power transmission maximum. I will try to use a one-watt visible green laser diode emitting at 532nm +/-10nm, synchronously amplitude modulated and the reflected photons synchronously demodulated. Statistical photon counting and binning are required to "see" the reflected "tagged" photons from a two kilometer diameter area illuminated on the surface of the Moon. More information can be found at this public-facing discussion group: http://optical-eme.groups.io

I am reaching out in this forum for help with the optics associated with the transmitter and receiver design. Comments on the electronics I will design and use are also welcome, but I don't want to hijack PF for that purpose.

73,
Hop AC8NS
 
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Welcome to PF.

Hop-AC8NS said:
I will try to use a one-watt visible green laser diode emitting at 532nm +/-10nm, synchronously amplitude modulated and the reflected photons synchronously demodulated.
I would suggest that the laser diode be on-off modulated with an RF chirp from a DDS that covers a wideband. The received data can be multiplied by the transmitted data, which is both synchronous detection and down conversion. You will need a stable clock, such as a GPS disciplined frequency reference, so the transmitted and received data can maintain low phase noise.

Take the FFT of the TX*RX product, so frequency will give you range. If the FFT has one million samples, you will get a noise reduction, due to transform gain of; √n = 1000 times.

A low pass filter will eliminate atmospheric backscatter, while things at the distance of the Moon will fall in a particular frequency band proportional to range.

Lasers, aimed at retroreflectors on the Moon, transmit PRBS "ranging codes" that enable precise transit times to be measured. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_code

Optical DX on Earth between mountains, uses LED, not laser sources because the laser light rapidly looses collimation in the atmosphere, so 150 watts of LED with a lens is actually more productive than laser.
 
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Hop-AC8NS said:
Hams are allowed to use ANY frequency greater than 275 GHz, with ANY modulation, and the usual 1500 watt power transmission maximum.
Have you checked out the other regulatory agencies? CDRH is the most common one in the USA (Also IEC 60825-1). I can't help because:
1) I only knew the manufacturer requirements for class IV lasers, not the user requirements.
2) It's a bureaucratic quagmire that I never really want to deal with again. Especially not for free.

If you try to do a laser light show in Las Vegas with your HAM license, it won't go over well.

Still, it's not impossible. I believe you can do it.

Maybe start here?
https://www.fda.gov/media/81404/download

BTW, historically, this sort of laser is a Q-Switched (pulsed) laser. It's either the peak power, or more likely, the pulse energy that counts, not so much the average power. There are just too many losses in the signal path for a CW laser signal to be detected.
 
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A laser is really not that good a source of light once it has passed through a few hundred metres of atmosphere. If the light source is from a bank of LEDs, each with a Fresnel lens, all that fear of lasers, and the bureaucratic regulations, can be dismissed, and you get a better S/N.

Optical EME to the antipodes, like optical DX, will need to be aimed close to the horizon. The problem then is narrow-minded people, seeing the unusual coloured light, and reporting it to the police because they don't know what it is. In Tasmania, we were advised to inform the police before operating, to confirm it is NOT a laser, so they could ignore the flood of callers to the emergency number.
 
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I think there is a retro reflector left on the Moon by the Apollo missions.
 
tech99 said:
I think there is a retro reflector left on the Moon by the Apollo missions.
There is, but it is not actually a true retroreflector.
It has an orientation and an angle of cut that reflects the light from where it came from, to where that same point on Earth will be, when the light finally returns to Earth.
 
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Baluncore said:
all that fear of lasers, and the bureaucratic regulations, can be dismissed
Not in the USA. CDRH doesn't regulate lasers, it regulates "radiation-emitting electronic products". When you get to calculating the nature of the radiation (divergence, wavelength, power, energy, etc.) then the results are different, but there are still applicable regulations to pay attention to. This makes sense to me since, except for some beam characteristics, there isn't too much difference between an LED and a semiconductor laser.

But, honestly, it's kind of a mess, because the States regulate use too. I wouldn't ever claim to really understand it. If it's bright enough to do this job, there will be safety regulations to deal with here.
 
Baluncore said:
A laser is really not that good a source of light once it has passed through a few hundred metres of atmosphere.
Yes, the atmosphere is a huge issue. The real advantage of lasers is the very high pulse energy, or peak power, of Q-switched lasers compared to LEDs. But it sounds like the OP isn't interested in pulses since he wants really high bandwidth comms.
 
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A possible work-around is use an incandescent lamp.
Both 1000W and 2000W are still available:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=2000+watt+incandescent+lamp

They are used in theater spotlights and projectors using an 8 inch dia. Fresnel lens.
[edit] And often a parabolic mirror behind it with the lamp at its focus.[/edit]

Please keep us updated on your results/non-results!

Cheers,
Tom
 
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  • #11
DaveE said:
But it sounds like the OP isn't interested in pulses since he wants really high bandwidth comms.
High BW requires one retroreflector be used. Since the scattering from the moon's spherical surface is spread over about 10 milliseconds, the reflected broad beam illumination will result in a BW of maybe 1/10 ms = 100 Hz.

To increase the BW would require a narrower illumination beam, and a bigger telescope, to examine only the nearest patch, with minimum curvature, on the Moon's surface. The BW limit will be determined by the surface topography of the scattering area employed.
 
  • #12
The scientist Hanbury-Brown did work on the light from binary stars and its fluctuation. He used a 931A photomultiplier tube at the focus of a wartime searchlight. This tube can detect individual photons. Maybe a searchlight itself would be a suitable light source - it is an arc light in a 1 metre reflector. I also understand that the Moon makes continuous small movements which disturb the incoming signal. We know that bandwidth and power can be traded, so I wonder if a very fast transmitted packet could get through unscathed, as its duration is shorter than the mechanical movements of the Moon. Of course, this requires a lot of bandwidth and hence a lot of power.
 
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Tom.G said:
A possible work-around is use an incandescent lamp.
Both 1000W and 2000W are still available:
Not powerful enough. Remember the radar problem of signal strength deceasing as the 4th power of target distance. You also have to go through the Earth's atmosphere twice. The broad spectrum of an incandescent is an issue for signal attenuation and detection difficulty compared to narrow spectrum lasers/LEDs. Also VERY hard to modulate at high frequencies.
 
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  • #14
tech99 said:
The scientist Hanbury-Brown did work on the light from binary stars and its fluctuation. He used a 931A photomultiplier tube at the focus of a wartime searchlight. This tube can detect individual photons. Maybe a searchlight itself would be a suitable light source - it is an arc light in a 1 metre reflector. I also understand that the Moon makes continuous small movements which disturb the incoming signal. We know that bandwidth and power can be traded, so I wonder if a very fast transmitted packet could get through unscathed, as its duration is shorter than the mechanical movements of the Moon. Of course, this requires a lot of bandwidth and hence a lot of power.
Not looking for wide bandwidth. Not (deliberately) using the three arrays of corner-cube retroreflectors. The largest array (A15) has an effective aperture of less than 0.5 m2, useless for communication purposes, but small enough to define its location for, say, Apache Point Observatory Lunar Laser-ranging Operations (APOLLO) in New Mexico. You should read the paper this group released describing the operation in detail. Not interested in measuring the distance to the Moon. Not interested in transmitting picosecond pulses twenty times per second with an average power on the order of one hundred to three hundred watts. Not interested in frequency doubling a Q-switched Nd:YAG laser to create a green probe beam. Cannot afford even a surplus Hollywood search light, with or without arc source. This is a problem in small-signal recovery, not brute force.

Hams are allowed up to 1500 watts transmitter power to their antennas, which in my case is a cheap "beginners" model 102mm refractor. Zapping its lens with 1500 watts is a non-starter. Also doesn't mean that is necessary for optical-EME comms. FCC also says hams must use the minimum amount of power necessary to communicate. I estimate the one watt is doable, but it will take perhaps ten minutes tracking a small (two kilometer diameter) illumination spot on the Moon to collect enough photons. This is the size of the illumination area for ANY diameter laser beam aimed at the Moon.

The Earth is surrounded by a hollow spherical concave-convex variable density atmospheric lens. This lens causes about one arc-second of divergence of the collimated beam as it leaves the atmosphere. From the POV of the Moon, every collimated source is a point-source because of the vast distance. The geometry is simple: calculate the spread of a collimated beam of light on its journey to the Moon if it spreads one arc-second on its way to getting there. Compare this area to the effective area of the A15 array. That's how much the laser power is attenuated when it is bounced off A15 to measure the distance to the Moon. Not interested in doing that. For optical-EME comms, photons coming from the entire illumination area must be detected and counted. This requires "tagging" the illumination photons to distinguish them from the regular photons reflected from other light sources: earthshine, starshine, sunshine. Lots of other shine to reject. A narrow-band optical filter will help suppress most of this backgo

So, your suggestion to use a search light lens is spot-on. But totally impractical for amateur radio. Hams are notorious penny pinchers. I grew up that way in the 1950s as I tried to pursue a budding electronics hobby. I raided the dumpsters behind radio and TV repair shops for discarded chassis and "slightly used" electron vacuum tubes. I can "pinch" and Indian Head penny so hard that his feathers fall off.

Today, in retirement, I have inherited a Celestron 102GT Computerized Telescope from my younger brother who died in Sarasota FL ten years ago. The "seeing" here in Venice FL is not quite as bad as the seeing in Sarasota (fewer bright lights) but it is generally quite awful. I thought I would give it a try anyway. The arrays of corner-cube retroreflectors were my inspiration, but after doing due-diligence research I realized that hams don't need them, and probably cannot use them, for communication purposes.

Hams have been using the Moon as a passive reflector of radio frequencies (VHF, UHF, and microwave) since the 1950s. Weak-signal digital signal processing is the de facto method used today to modulate and demodulate their signals. There is a group on the Internet devoted to exploring and extending this technology. They are all standing on the shoulders of Claude Shannon, as do I.

The quantum photon detector of choice is an avalanche photo-diode detector (APD). A ham friend in Australia (Rex VK7MO) uses a largeish one (US$ 500) for his line-of-sight and "cloud bounce" optical comms receiver. He collects light transmitted from an array of LEDs with a single large Fresnel lens focused on his expensive APD. I want to do the same type of "receiver" using an array of Fresnel lenses to collect photons and focus them onto the photo-cathode of a 1P21 PMT. This PMT is "new old-stock" or NOS that I acquired many years ago, still in its original box. I only have two of them, but am willing to share with another ham who is seriously interested in optical-EME.
Baluncore said:
A laser is really not that good a source of light once it has passed through a few hundred metres of atmosphere. If the light source is from a bank of LEDs, each with a Fresnel lens, all that fear of lasers, and the bureaucratic regulations, can be dismissed, and you get a better S/N.
Rex VK7MO in Australia ran across this problem when he was doing line-of-sight and so-called "cloud bounce" comms with a large, red, high-power, LED array. Folks would see the red glow on the horizon and "alert" the authorities to the "forest fire". He solved the problem by switching to near-infrared LEDs.
 
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Hop-AC8NS said:
He solved the problem by switching to near-infrared LEDs.
I work with and support several amateurs in southern Tasmania, so I know Rex. By moving to near IR, they have left the shorter wavelength optical records open for others.

I have a box of 50 or so good PM tubes in the shed if you need some, they are from a medical gamma camera. I believe they were designed to work with scintillators, at the blue end of the spectrum.
 
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Hop-AC8NS said:
Hams are notorious penny pinchers. I grew up that way in the 1950s as I tried to pursue a budding electronics hobby. I raided the dumpsters behind radio and TV repair shops for discarded chassis and "slightly used" electron vacuum tubes.
As you are in Florida, many years ago while serving at Range Group out of Nellis AFB in Nevada we participated in a Florida-based government electronic equipment salvage program operated from Patrick AFB (DoD) and Cape Canaveral (NASA).

We liberated loads of working test equipment and surplus once-state-of-the-art gear paying only shipping costs. Leftover equipment was sold to the public at low cost. I still own a small Tektronix O-scope and nice pair of Zeiss binoculars purchased surplus at a Nellis "flea market" open to locals with base access.

Given your frugality, you might find a contemporary program.
 
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  • #17
I was an Air Force officer's Brat, along with my younger brother. Dad retired to Dayton OH, home of Hamvention, after flying for SAC on the three-man crewed B-47 bombers as their radar navigator/bombardier. He was a bombardier on B-17s during WWII, a POW, and a career officer after VE-Day. So Hamvention and Hamcation (near Orlando FL) are my "go to" places to find electronic "boat anchors" and other fine stuff. There are many local "ham conventions" with "tail gate" vendors from which to pursue the hobby. For common components, my go-to source has been Amazon since vendors such as Radio Shack are no longer around.
DaveE said:
Excellent resource! Our next door neighbors (who have since moved) got into trouble a few years ago when they put up some very bright Christmas decorations. They got a visit from the Sarasota County Sheriff who told them they had to take 'em down. Well, duh! We live on one of two takeoff and approach paths to Venice Airport, so its no wonder someone noticed. But, yeah, there is a form I need to submit for FAA approval before I can point a laser at the Moon. Also need to (perhaps) coordinate with Space Force as they are very sensitive about what happens to their assets in orbit. They will issue "shutter" commands to Government entities, and civilian entities should also comply on a volunteer basis, but it is the FAA that is "in charge" of skyward-pointing lasers. And I want to check back with the FCC to make sure hams are still allowed to operate at any frequency greater than 275 GHz. All this "paperwork" is absolutely necessary as we get tons (literally) of Snowbirds flying in every winter. The are all mostly gone by Easter, but the Venice Airport is popular with private aviation.
Baluncore said:
I have a box of 50 or so good PM tubes in the shed if you need some
Thanks, but I will stick to my two 1P21 PMTs for the proof-of-concept. If successful, an amateur radio operator who wants to build an optical-EME rig will probably do their own scrounging of a suitable PMT or APD.

I am going to investigate using a GaAs PCSS as a photon detector. In a previous life (before retirement) I got to know these remarkable devices rather well. They are photo-conductive devices in the ordinary sense, i.e. no semiconductor junction. But if biased above about four kilovolts per centimeter they will go into avalanche conduction after a photon "triggers" them into conduction. Because of the extremely high electron mobility in the GaAs crystal lattice they turn on very fast (picoseconds), and stay turned on, labeled lock-on operation by their inventors at Sandia National Laboratories, until the current drops below a threshold value that commutates conduction. The PCSS devices we made conducted mainly across their surface in a "lightning like" discharge, but a photo-sensor would probably need to have a thin epitaxial film grown on a GaAs substrate, which is how hetero-junction bipolar transistors are manufactured for use in high-performance integrated circuits.

I used to electrically isolate those devices by injecting oxygen ions at various energies through apertures in a thick mask, applied by our customer to their integrated circuits on a 100mm wafer. Lost that job when they went to a larger wafer that we could not implant. So, at age 70, I retired.

Perhaps a "passivization" layer could first be grown on a semi-insulating GaAs wafer, followed by a thin layer that performs the photon detection function. This is waaay above my level of incompetence; even our customer had a third party grow the HBTs on a bare wafer.

I cannot afford a commercial APD, so I will stick with my pair of PMTs and hope I don't damage the spare. But thank you for the offer. How much would you charge to let one of those blue-sensitive PMTs go?
 
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Hop-AC8NS said:
How much would you charge to let one of those blue-sensitive PMTs go?
They are optimised for a gamma camera, so may not be good for your application.
Photonis. Type XP5312/SN. PH:40 pC. PHR:8.7% Made in France. Nov 1998.
9-stage PMT, Round tube, 76mm (3") diam.
https://www.diyphysics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/XP5312.pdf

They were recovered when the instrument was decommissioned to scrap, and stored as a community resource. The scintillation plates went elsewhere. Send me a Private Message with your proposed application, explaining why I should donate one or more to your project.
 
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Baluncore said:
Send me a Private Message with your proposed application, explaining why I should donate one or more to your project.
A little early for that, but it's nice that you are willing to donate to a worthy cause. I am at least a year away from sending photons to the Moon. If successful, I would implore you to lend me one for evaluation. If it works out, maybe other hams could arrange something with you. I would want to see a commitment from them first that they are serious about optical-EME. In the meantime, I'll keep plugging away. Microscope should arrive tomorrow from Amazon. Anxious to see if I can create microscopic holes (1 - 2 µm diameter) for my spatial filter. Any suggestions for that? I am going to try to discharge a capacitor into a pulse transformer to create a spark to punch holes in aluminum foil. Did this years ago with an old Ford spark coil (the one in a wooden box with two HV terminals on the top and a vibrating interrupter on the end) to create "invisible" holes in my mom's cigarettes, ruining the "draw" and making them impossible to smoke. IIRC, Mother did not appreciate her budding genius child.


When I was operating the Tandetron particle accelerator I had a gamma ray detector, probably much like yours. It was a chrome-plated cylinder with a scintillation crystal and some sort of photo-detector inside. We were supposed to zap targets with various ions and look for the characteristic radiation peak that occurs at specific ion energies. This was to "calibrate" the energy imparted to the ions by the accelerator. For what I was doing (implanting oxygen ions to various depths in GaAs wafers) the exact value of energy was less important than the dose. I wound up putting it on the shelf after checking to make sure it actually worked. I was used to having to work with leftovers and hand-me-downs from previous employments.
 
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  • #20
The optical-EME QSO will probably have to occur over two or more nights of Lunar viewing because the returning photon flux is quite small. This is possible because the transmitted bit sequences are transmitted for a finite duration in synchronism with a GPS-disciplined oscillator controlling a UTC clock. Except for a delay, that varies slowly over the course of an evening as the Earth-Moon distance changes, after accounting for that delay the expected position of each bit in the message is known a priori.

This means statistically up-counting received noise plus signal photons into bins, synchronized to UTC time, and then down-counting noise photons, in the same bins during an equal-length "silent" interval after the message is transmitted, results in a signal-to-noise ratio improvement that is a function of the square root of the number of message cycles transmitted.

Depending on transmitter power (affects the number of photons per second transmitted to the Moon) and the area of the receiver aperture (affects the number of photons per second accepted on Earth for photon counting), the number of message cycles could be as little as just one (humongous transmit power, Palomar-sized receiving aperture) or many millions of message cycles (peanut-sized power, smallish receiving telescope).

Either way, it all boils down to patience. Some hams will have it; some will not. Here near the Gulf Coast of Florida the "seeing" is generally terrible. I also want to "shoot the Moon" near its local zenith for these proof-of-concept trials. That probably means it could take me a month of moonlit nights to receive just one message! Another ham, more favorably located, might be able to receive the same message in only a few minutes. So, the effective data rate is extremely variable.

During the half-second transmit interval (followed by another half-second of non-transmission) the laser beam can be on/off modulated (OOM) extremely fast with the right equipment. Megahertz modulation rates are possible, but probably not by pulsing a laser diode on and off. The affordable laser diodes take time to "warm up" before they reach a stable internal temperature. During this warm up interval, the diode current must be rigidly controlled and ramped up to prevent destroying the laser. Because of this warm-up time, which must be repeated each time the laser diode is allowed to cool down, I plan to leave the laser diode on all the time and amplitude modulate the laser beam further down the optics train.

One idea I want to test is using a piezo-electric transducer to block and un-block the laser beam. This would occur by placing a movable vane at the plane of a pin-hole spatial filter. This filter consists of a microscope objective that accepts the incoming laser beam and focuses it to a small spot at the plane of the pin-hole aperture, used to extract a TEMoo beam from the multi-modal diode-pumped solid-state (DPSS) laser beam. That should be good for a few kilohertz with bit transitions possibly occurring every millisecond during the 0.5 second transmission interval. So, five hundred bit transitions possible per message. More if the modulation frequency can be increased.

Another OOM (on/off modulation) method comes to mind: Faraday polarization rotation between two Nicol polarizing prisms, using an optical cell holding a substance with a suitable Verdet constant. Another polarization-dependent scheme does this with high voltage instead of high current through an inductor: a Pockels cell. A disadvantage of using polarization to modulate the laser beam is half the power is immediately thrown away in polarizing the laser beam. Another problem is the high voltage required to switch the Pockels cell. And for a DIY project, probably neither scheme is acceptable. So I will try the mechanical interruption of the laser beam technique first.

This topic doesn't seem to have garnered much attention, but I did seem to observe some comments as to why it won't work, and therefore no need to waste any more time discussing how to do the impossible. When I was a working engineer, and before that, a working technician, I and many of my colleagues tried to follow these instructions: The difficult we will do immediately. The impossible will take a little while longer. It didn't always work, but we kept on trying until the money (or the time) ran out. This is my "bucket list" project. Learning how to fly an airplane is on the list, too, but this one is at the top of the list. I'll probably skip the sky-diving lessons...
 
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It has been awhile since I posted here (August 2025). This post is an update on what has happened since then: not much, so there is no need to read further if not interested.

I tried reaching out to ARRL (American Radio Relay League) lab personnel. The ARRL represents hams (amateur radio operators) and their interests to our government. They also publish literature that promotes and documents the hobby. My email to them was forwarded to a ham who replied to me. This ham said he was afraid of using a laser, although he was willing to work with optics design. I may take him up on that offer because I need some practical help on how to circularize, collimate, and spatially filter the output of a Nichia LDG7H75 laser diode that I plan to eventually be able to use.

The commonly available laser diodes do not produce a nice, clean, TEMoo output beam. The datasheets say they emit an elliptical beam consisting to two orthogonal polarizations with widely different emission angles and lots of transverse modes. Using aspheric optics, this elliptical beam can be turned into a collimated circular beam, about one or two millimeters in diameter for the main lobe. Using a 16X microscope objective, in conjunction with my 202mm diameter, 1000mm focal length telescope, the tiny beam is expanded and collimated. A pin-hole aperture at the common focal point of these two compound (chromatic and spherically corrected) lenses "shaves off" the extra transverse modes, leaving just a TEMoo beam for transmission to the Moon. The spatial filter also shaves off all the power in those extra lobes, which may turn out to be a "good thing" since it limits the output power.

It is possible to purchase a "high power" diode laser that emits one watt or more of 532nm +/- 1nm radiation in a TEMoo beam. The device can also be amplitude-modulated with a TTL logic-level signal at kilohertz rates. Unfortunately, the average ham would not be able to afford this commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) component.

It may be time to abandon this project, because of a perceived lack of interest by the ham community. Someone else can demonstrate optical-eme by licensed amateur radio operators later in this century. It requires two hams to conduct a QSO (ham-speak for a two-way conversation), but I have yet to find a single ham who is ready to commit to building an optical-eme rig. This might change if an Earth-side demo can be arranged. I cannot simulate the two and a half second round-trip delay, but it should be possible with multiple neutral-density filters to simulate the round-trip path losses.

The plan is to create a PowerPoint slide presentation that explains the problem of amateur radio optical-eme and my proposed solution. This would be in conjunction with a digital storage oscilloscope (DSO) display of the most significant bits (converted to an analog signal) of the bit-counters. The DSO display will show the repetitive "signal" rising above the noise floor, in a period of time that is proportional to the attenuation.

Less density implies a quicker response; more density implies a slower response. There will be minimal "hand waving" but the "noise" component will obviously not be coming from the Moon. Injecting some incoherent light from an LED to simulate noise coming from the Moon is one possible "Moon noise" simulation that I will investigate. It may make more sense to simply inject some electrical "white" noise in the detector output.

The principle of counting up when photons are expected, and counting down in the same bins when the laser is not transmitting, results in the signal count increasing while the noise count averages toward zero. Wash, rinse, repeat until the signal component is sufficiently larger than the noise floor to definitively state that the signal was received. I will aim for a received S/N ratio of at least 5:1. The signal-to-noise ratio improves as the square root of the number of repetitions. A million repetitions improves the S/N ratio by a factor of one thousand, for example. Because the transmitted "frames" are all the same, and the timed occurrence of their bit transitions are synced to an atomic clock on a GPS satellite, the frames can be "stacked" and received in any order. The only thing that matters is how many repetitions must be received to achieve the desired S/N ratio. This is a function of transmit power and receiver aperture area: more power and/or larger receiver aperture reduce the number of repetitions.

In an earlier post I suggested that the transmit and non-transmit intervals be a half-second in duration. These two intervals are followed by a longer silent, non-transmit, interval that allows time for the transmitted photons to leave the atmosphere and eventually return to Earth without the photon detector being affected by back-scattered radiation during the transmission interval. Conceptually, this means the photon-detector is shuttered or otherwise "turned off" during transmission and for a longer period afterward during the non-transmit interval. This is similar to hams using a switch or a relay to change from transmit to receive or vice versa. I plan to use a bi-static rig that uses separate transmission and receive telescopes, muting the receive telescope during laser transmissions. The ratio of the duration of the first two intervals to the longer following interval determines the duty cycle of the Earth-Moon transmissions, and hence the average power sent skyward.

It is very desirable to keep skyward laser power as small as possible for many reasons. The most important reason is to prevent "flash blindness" if a pilot should happen to "see" the laser beam. The FAA defines the power density a laser beam must not exceed at various altitudes to avoid a citation. In any event, a notice of intended skyward laser operation MUST be submitted to the FAA, on their designated form, BEFORE pointing a laser beam at the Moon. With that in mind, I now plan to use one millisecond for the transmit and non-transmit intervals and three seconds for the interval between frames.

Another reason to keep laser power as small as possible is the FCC mandate that hams should use the minimum amount of power necessary to conduct a QSO. With the advent of Joe Taylor's WSJT-X software, the lower limit of power becomes a lot less than the 1500 watt maximum that hams are allowed to transmit. Hams now actively pursue QRP (low power) operation using digital modulation/detection schemes such as JT8 or JT65. This greatly expands the "reach" of the amateur radio hobby.
 
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  • #22
I think the technical challenges can be overcome, but then there are a number of bureaucratic stumbling blocks in Australia, so I can see why amateurs here might be keen to avoid optical EME. Some of these obstacles might fall into place, or melt away, when approached by the right person.

1. We would need to notify the Civil Aviation Safety Authority before operation. https://www.casa.gov.au/

2. If not operating in a defined amateur band, we would probably need a scientific licence from ACMA, also, if the equipment was not type approved, it would need an exemption permit.
https://www.acma.gov.au/licences/scientific-licence

3. Both the operator, and the laser equipment, may need approval, or an exemption, from ARPANSA. https://www.arpansa.gov.au/
 
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  • #23
DaveE said:
Have you checked out the other regulatory agencies?
There are many regulatory agencies in the USA. We LOVE our government's nannies, re-electing them over multiple terms of office as they try to protect us from ourselves. Peace (and Safety) Through Strength... and Government regulation.

So, no, the only regulatory agencies that concern me now, and that I have "checked out" are the FCC, the FAA, and Space Force. If the FDA wants to get involved, I will wait for their subpoena. Or maybe someone will get a judge to issue a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO). Some judges here in the USA seem to think they can determine policy. It takes years of time, wasted in court, to get them back into their lane.

If some agency wants to shut me down, I will just do it and move on and try to check off another "bucket list" project. There will always be nay-Sayers to distract the productive in any society. I mostly ignore them if the science is correct.
DaveE said:
If you try to do a laser light show in Las Vegas with your HAM license, it won't go over well.
The FAA requires that anyone (even in Las Vegas) who wants to point a visible laser above the local horizon MUST submit a form, designated by the FAA, describing in considerable detail EXACTLY what, when, and where a laser will be pointed skyward. I will certainly do that before attempting to "shoot the Moon" with my laser-equipped telescope.
DaveE said:
Yeah, I have been familiar with radiation safety since the 1970s when I was working with weapons-grade laser development, helping to spin up the Laser Window Evaluation Laboratory at the Kirtland AFB Air Force Weapons Laboratory in Albuquerque NM. Those of us working on this project had to have our eyes examined, in particular our retinas photographed, BEFORE being allowed to work with lasers. It was just a CYA procedure to protect our employer, but it was nice to know that someone cared.

Twenty-five years later, when I was operating and maintaining a Tandetron 1.7MV particle accelerator, I had to submit to inspection by an Ohio agency responsible for medical radiation licensing. Passed the inspection, but I did learn that there was some low-level x-ray flux coming through the leaded-glass view ports at the target end. Nice to know, since I had to use my Mark I eyeballs to "see" the accelerated ion beam prior to scanning and ion implantation. I will inform and, if necessary, get permission from the appropriate agencies before "shooting the Moon". Maybe get my Congress Representaive involved.
DaveE said:
BTW, historically, this sort of laser is a Q-Switched (pulsed) laser.
History has nothing to do with amateur radio optical-eme, except that the folks who do Lunar Laser-Ranging (LLR) have demonstrated that it is possible. Of course they aren't interested in bouncing visible light off the Moon for communications purposes. NASA does that, but so far no amateur radio operators that I am aware of.

The LLR folks needed a small target whose position on the Moon was accurately known, the purpose being to determine the center-to-center distance between the oblate spheroid that is Earth and the sphere that is the Moon. They needed to know the precise location of their telescope, too, but a GPS constellation orbiting Earth provides that.

So, measuring the two-way time-of-flight between laser pulses emitted from Earth, reflected from a corner-cube retro-reflector array on the Moon, and received one photon at time back on Earth, provided the distance data (assuming a constant speed of light) needed to calculate the geometric distance, center-to-center, between the Earth and the Moon. I have been reliably informed that this allows testing of certain aspects of Einstein's General Theory of Relativity as well as current gravitational theory.

The purpose of using a Q-switched, frequency-doubled, Nd:YAG laser was to create picosecond probe pulses, of sufficiently short duration as to allow millimeter ranging precision. They chose to use frequency-doubling to 532nm because that wavelength was accommodated by their 3.5m telescope, and because this wavelength passes through the Earth's atmosphere.

I did consider doing the same thing, using a "slightly used" tattoo removal laser frequency-doubled to 532nm, just like the APOLLO group in New Mexico did. Problem is, the Chinese tattoo removal laser are Q-switched with a material that becomes optically transparent at the certain power level. This completes the laser cavity and produces a narrow output pulse, but not just a single pulse. As the lasing medium depopulates, the Q-switch becomes opaque again. The lasing medium is still being pumped however, so the Q-switch becomes transparent again and another pulse appears. Wash, rinse, and repeat until the lasing medium is no longer being pumped.

The result is an indeterminant number of short laser pulses, impossible to easily modulate. Of course, one could replace the laser-bleached Q-switch with a more controllable Q-switch, allowing the emission of single laser pulses, but that hardly improves the situation. Optical-eme is not about receiving picosecond pulses and measuring their time-of-flight, although controlled Q-switching does offer the possibility of pulse-position-modulation (PPM) instead of on/off modulation.

Anyway, restoring one of those tattoo removal lasers to operation usually involves cleaning the components in contact with cooling water that has caused their internal corrosion. I am guessing the Chinese tattoo removal salons do not have distilled water for cooling purposes, hence the availability of used lasers at cheap prices.
DaveE said:
There are just too many losses in the signal path for a CW laser signal to be detected.
The modulation method I have proposed is NOT a CW laser signal, although the laser is intensity modulated in a on/off (OOM) manner. The "signal" is in the form of a short pulse, about 1.024 milliseconds long with many one-microsecond duration bit-signal transitions occurring during that interval. This is followed by a silent (non-transmitting) interval of equal duration.

Individual photons received, after an approximately 2.5 second delay, are counted up in time-synchronized bins, each bin corresponding to a single data bit. Then, after this transmission interval, detected photons are counted down for the same duration in the same bins. Over a sufficient number of repetitions, the bins will contain cumulative counts representing the binary data bits, while the counts representing noise are non-accumulative and average toward zero.

At this point, I feel I am either preaching to the choir or to deaf ears. An Earth-based demo might change a few minds, but that is several months down the road. It may never occur, as my resources are limited.

73,
Hop-AC8NS
 
  • #24
Hop-AC8NS said:
Problem is, the Chinese tattoo removal laser are...
Cheap. They put energy into skin with the precision requirements of a doctor.

In the mid 1980's I worked on a 532nm Q-Switched laser to communicate from airplanes to submarines. It worked well with PPM modulation at 10Hz (128 bits/pulse IIRC). Later, also on a few industrial Q-Switched lasers where the pulses were extremely well controlled. The derm lasers you describe are outliers. As a general rule (meaning not always true) medical lasers are cheaper with much lower lifetime and performance requirements than any other industrial or scientific niche. In the world of real lasers (sorry) QS is common and not difficult.

The advantage of QS lasers is energy can be stored in the cavity, so much greater pulse power/energy is achieved compare to a CW gated laser. But, granted, they are more expensive. If you can do it with pulsed LEDS or semiconductor lasers then that would be great. Go for it.

Hop-AC8NS said:
Individual photons received, after an approximately 2.5 second delay, are counted up in time-synchronized bins, each bin corresponding to a single data bit. Then, after this transmission interval, detected photons are counted down for the same duration in the same bins.
Sounds like a coherent detection scheme, I guess? That's the right way to do it, IMO. I assume you also have good dichroic filters in front of the receiver, there's no need to see red or blue light.

Hop-AC8NS said:
At this point, I feel I am either preaching to the choir or to deaf ears.
It's easy to get off the cuff comments on your project (like here). But it's your project, not ours, so really valuable work will be hard to find. I think you need a small team of really committed people, not hundreds of people kibitzing.
 
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  • #25
DaveE said:
Cheap. They put energy into skin with the precision requirements of a doctor.
This would be a "last resort" because I don't think the optics in my el-cheapo telescope would stand up well under the high peak-power available from a QS laser, even after frequency doubling to 532nm.

DaveE said:
In the mid 1980's I worked on a 532nm Q-Switched laser to communicate from airplanes to submarines.
In the mid 1980s I was working on classified digital image processing for a three-letter agency. We also laid out ground truth targets. I was allowed to participate in a couple of those deployments since I was originally hired to upgrade the portable radiometer used to collect GT data on magnetic tape and then "phone home" that data to the "mothership" before the data got too out-of-date.

Most exciting event occurred during a winter deployment in Wisconsin. I volunteered to sit in a chair (jury rigged for the purpose) and get hoisted twenty or thirty feet into the air to operate a new infrared radiometer collecting data from snow on the ground below. No guy wires, and I noticed (after I got back on the ground) that there was a label on the hoist stating that it was not approved for lifting humans. It did sway a bit, but since it didn't topple over I didn't complain. Was actually quite thrilling in retrospect. And I didn't have to change my underwear afterward.

Communicating with submerged boomers is the holy grail of the Navy, especially at wider bandwidths than can be obtained with their VLF network. I imagine this work is still highly classified because I haven't read about it lately in Aerospace Leak and Space Stuff magazine. Gonna pay close attention to what's going on in the waters around Iran, because it looks like all Hell might soon break out there.
DaveE said:
In the world of real lasers (sorry) QS is common and not difficult.
In the world of real lasers a considerable investment in hardware is necessary to achieve real results. My entire career has been with government-supported defense contractors. Money was not usually a problem, but I am now retired and have my newly re-license amateur radio hobby to pursue. I am in no position to build (essentially from scratch) a QS laser. I doubt I can afford a Nd:YAG rod with polished ends cut at Brewster's angle with external cavity mirrors. Or are these now a dime a dozen? I assume you used a Pockels cell for your Q-Switch. I cannot afford one, much less the high-voltage, high-speed, electronics needed to drive it.

A Faraday rotator might be an affordable substitute. We used these to suppress RF reflections that would destroy our tunable magnetron in a Ku-band radar system. But most materials with a large Verdet constant at optical wavelengths are also highly toxic. Carbon disulfide is probably what I would use, assuming I could find or build an optical device to hold the liquid. There is still the problem of driving the coil fast enough to achieve megahertz bit rates. And affording Nicol polarizing prisms.
DaveE said:
The advantage of QS lasers is energy can be stored in the cavity, so much greater pulse power/energy is achieved compare to a CW gated laser. But, granted, they are more expensive. If you can do it with pulsed LEDS or semiconductor lasers then that would be great. Go for it.
I think pulsed LEDs are out of the question. I need a collimated, coherent, source of visible light if there is to be any hope of receiving and detecting photons back from their round-trip to and from the Moon.
DaveE said:
Sounds like a coherent detection scheme, I guess? That's the right way to do it, IMO. I assume you also have good dichroic filters in front of the receiver, there's no need to see red or blue light.
Not sure if you mean coherent detection, as in a superheterodyne receiver, but the spectral bandwidth of laser diodes is too large for that type of coherent detection. I wouldn't even know how to mix a visible local oscillator to down-convert to radio frequencies. The intermediate frequency bandwidth would have to be hundreds of megahertz, and the IF would wander all over the place. The received bits ARE coherent with an atomically-stabilized megahertz frequency oscillator, after a (mostly) fixed propagation delay. I think that a GPS-disciplined, temperature stabilized, megahertz oscillator will be adequate for the task.

Variations in atmospheric index of refraction could cause problems in bit-alignment, but that might be accommodated by simply lowering the bit rate. Too many variables to consider, so experimentation is necessary. Sometimes the results of experiment will kill a project before too much time and/or money is wasted pursuing it.

I won't be using dichroic filters to suppress background radiation. A narrow-band interference filter, centered on the 532nm laser emission line, will be placed in front of my 1P21 PMT photocathode. I can barely afford a commercial version of that (about a hundred bux or so) but an diffraction grating and a pair of double-edge razor blades (for flatness) could be used to make a slit monochrometer. If optical-eme "catches on" there might eventually be a need for a "waterfall" spectrum display, which is easily accomplished by attaching a piezo actuator to the grating to sweep the visible spectrum across the slit.
DaveE said:
It's easy to get off the cuff comments on your project (like here). But it's your project, not ours, so really valuable work will be hard to find. I think you need a small team of really committed people, not hundreds of people kibitzing.
That is why I formed the public-facing discussion group at https://optical-eme.groups.io A few hams have joined that forum, but I've relaxed the membership requirements so non-hams can also participate. I have not been able to get much traction locally at the Tamiami Amateur Radio Club (TARC) but perhaps an Earth-bound demo would elicit more participation. Reaching out to the ARRL has not produced any results yet. I think the ARRL will only be interested AFTER someone demonstrates successful optical-eme QSOs. They are very practically oriented. Maybe I should consider submitting an article to their QEX technical magazine.

The smallest team of committed people is exactly two. A QSO requires two-way communication, so two operators are the minimum required. I don't anticipate any "pile ups" real soon now. I wouldn't even be thinking about doing this were it not for inheriting a "toy" telescope from my deceased brother.

73,
Hop-AC8NS
 
  • #26
Hop-AC8NS said:
I doubt I can afford a Nd:YAG rod with polished ends cut at Brewster's angle with external cavity mirrors. Or are these now a dime a dozen?
eBay, maybe inside a broken laser.

Hop-AC8NS said:
I assume you used a Pockels cell for your Q-Switch. I cannot afford one, much less the high-voltage, high-speed, electronics needed to drive it.
A-O QS is the way to go like this one. They are driven from a gated HF source (80MHz, maybe 5W, IIRC).

1769558232123.webp


For 532nm it's the doubler xtal that's both the expensive and hard part. Building it yourself isn't the way to go. All of the mechanical mounts, lenses, power supplies and such will bankrupt you. Plus it will take a really long time and some real optical/physic knowledge. Buying a used or slightly broken one is a better idea. Don't go there if you don't have to. Having said that, every pro in this sort of scheme will buy a green QS laser. IDK, YMMV.
 
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  • #27
DaveE said:
Having said that, every pro in this sort of scheme will buy a green QS laser. IDK, YMMV.
FCC-licensed amateur radio operators are NOT professionals, by definition. We pursue the hobby without pecuniary interest. Professionals are welcome to participate, but it is never a requirement. Hams, who can afford it, do often purchase rather than build their "rigs". Hams call their station equipment rigs. It is a very eclectic society of folks interested in communicating with electromagnetic radiation. We call these "conversations" QSOs and there are thousands of hams persuing long distance QSOs in far away places. These folks are called DX chasers, DX meaning distance. Every year, a few hams pool their resources to conduct DXpeditions to locations around the world that have few or no amateur radio operators. This usually causes a lot of "pile ups" as other hams compete to obtain a QSO with the "rare" call sign issued to the DXpedition. I am not expecting any pile ups from optical-eme operations, but that could occur if it catches on.

Back in the day (20th Century) the epitome of ham radio was a Collins SSB rig pushing the legal limit of power into a massive antenna "farm," usually with a tower or two on the property. However, when I got my Novice license (KN8UTJ) I opted to build a Heathkit SB-300 amateur band receiver and a DIY 75 watt CW transmitter. My antenna was a half-wave dipole, installed on my barracks roof, that resonated on just one ham band. I did purchase a telegraph key, but I already had a pair of earphones, so my expenses were minimal. Most important, I had the support of the Air Force and my First Sergeant to perform ham radio activities from my room in the barracks, and permission to erect an antenna on the tar-and-pebble flat roof two stories above me. A roll of surplus coaxial cable from my Armament and Electronics shop was given to me to connect my rig to the antenna. All this helped to pass the time while we airmen prepared to wage WW3 with our wing of B-52H bombers from the frozen depths of the Michigan penensula.

There will always be folks with deep pockets full of cash, and some of them will be, or will become, amateur radio operators. I know a few of them who have retired here in Florida, but that ain't me. The challenge of ham radio has always been, for me, to pursue the hobby in a clever manner, not to peel off a stack of Benjamins and become an appliance operator... although there are some who do.

I did find a COTS (commercial off-the-shelf) 532nm laser diode source that claims one nanometer line width and is capable of TTL modulation at megahertz rates. Professional stuff that I cannot afford. Avalanche photo-diode (APD) detectors are readily available, too. So, any ham can purchase these components and a telescope and try to do optical-eme. Some assembly required.

I inherited my telescope from my deceased brother. My wife, who is not a ham, pays attention to my hobby. She suggested that I try to use the telescope to "shoot the Moon" for optical-eme. So, at age 81+, this is a "bucket list" project. My goal is to try to point the way, or one possible way, to perform optical-eme and then watch for others to pick up the vibe. The science has already been demonstrated. All that remains is implementation by hams at a cost they can afford. This is the essence of ham radio: do as much as possible with the minimum necessary expense of time and money while always having fun. If a "professional" wants to get involved, that's fine and is appreciated. Hams do what we do without pecuniary interest, but the hobby can be a real money pit. Frugal alternatives are always welcome, which is why hams can now do RF-eme with digital modulation and a small Yagi-Uda antenna while transmitting less than one hundred watts of power. Now that inexpensive laser diodes are available, the time may be right for optical-eme. And, yes, your mileage (or kilometers) may vary. Just remember to always have fun.
 
  • #28
Baluncore said:
Welcome to PF.
Thank you. I hope I won't bore anyone here.



Baluncore said:
I would suggest that the laser diode be on-off modulated with an RF chirp from a DDS that covers a wideband. The received data can be multiplied by the transmitted data, which is both synchronous detection and down conversion. You will need a stable clock, such as a GPS disciplined frequency reference, so the transmitted and received data can maintain low phase noise.
Yes, the proposed modulation scheme is a form of amplitude modulation that uses digital correlation with noise cancellation to improve a horrendous signal-to-noise ratio. RF chirp is out of the question because I don't have an affordable method of doing that. My Elecraft KX3 amateur radio transceiver uses DDS to cover all the HF amateur radio bands, and it also transmits coherent electromagnetic radiation. I don't know how to do this with laser diodes.

Also, I cannot mix the transmitted laser signal with a local oscillator optical signal to perform down conversion: the laser emission line is too wide and not frequency stable. The stuff we do with radio frequencies is just not practical with lasers that I can afford.
Baluncore said:
Take the FFT of the TX*RX product, so frequency will give you range. If the FFT has one million samples, you will get a noise reduction, due to transform gain of; √n = 1000 times.
I do plan on taking lots of "samples" of the same "message" and "stacking" them to improve the S/N ratio proportional to the square root of the number of identical "message frames" transmitted.

I don't know what performing an FFT of the TX*RX product would do, or if it is even possible to do that. The TX part is well known, since I generate that here on Earth, but the RX part is in the form of individual photons, some of which are signal photons transmitted from Earth, and some of which are noise photons reflected from the Moon by Earthshine, starshine, sunshine from crescent Moon limbs. What distinguishes the two is a priori knowledge of when the transmitted photons occur, determined by synchronous bit transitions synchronized to an atomic clock with a GPS-disciplined oscillator and also UTC clock derived from same. The received photons are also synchronized, after a very slowly varying delay, to the same oscillator. Once this delay is determined, the received photons will be counted up during the transmission interval and counted down during the following silent interval. The noise photons will average toward zero counts because noise photons are counted up and then down while transmitted photons are only counted up. Therefore transmitted photons accumulate in bit counters while noise photons average toward zero in the same counting bins.

All of this is quite similar to using a light chopper to add amplitude modulation information to a transmitted beam and then using a lock-in amplifier, synchronized to the chopper frequency and phase, to recover the signal. I performed this experiment in the 1970s using a Harshaw Chemical pyroelectric detector for the receiver, a fifty percent duty-cycle mechanical chopper, and a Princeton Applied Research lock-in amplifier.

I placed the pyroelectric detector, without any optics, pointing at a doorway on the other side of the lab, a distance of about fifty feet. The chopper was interposed in the path between the detector and the doorway. With the chopper running, and the PAR lock-in set for about a 100 second integration time, I could detect the presence (or not) or a human being standing in the doorway. Too bad I didn't have two of those early device to play with because I might have discovered passive infrared (PIR) detectors, so ubiquitous today for the important purpose of turning lights on when motion is detected, or opening doors when a person approaches. PIR detectors were the death-kneel for optical interrupters and pressure-sensitive foot pads previously used to open and close electrically operated doors.

Baluncore said:
A low pass filter will eliminate atmospheric backscatter, while things at the distance of the Moon will fall in a particular frequency band proportional to range.
Atmospheric backscatter during frame transmission is a huge problem. It cannot be eliminated by filtering because it is the same wavelength as the laser transmitter. What I can do is mute the receiver while transmitting. This is the normal way that hams perform a QSO: using a single-pole, double-throw relay, the transmitter is connected to the antenna and the receiver is disconnected, and also possibly electronically muted.

A very narrow-band optical filter MUST be used at the entrance to the quantum photon detector to prevent it from becoming saturated with ambient light on the Moon. I found a 532nm inteference filter that is affordable, but my laser emission occurs over a fairly wide bandwidth of +/- 10nm. I cannot afford a laser with a one nanometer wide spectral emission line, much less an interference filter that small a bandpass. And then there is the problem of laser line emission wavelength stability. Gotta keep the laser emissions within the filter band width... maybe with temperature control? But even if that works, it still leaves the problem of getting the laser to emit in the center of the filter's bandwidth response.

When I was a Novice in the late 1970s, I built my transmitter with a NE-2 type of neon lamp that had a third "trigger" terminal. When I keyed the transmitter I also turned on the neon lamp, which was wired in series with a small-valued resistor, across the SB-300 antenna input terminals. The RF output from the transmitter kept the neon lamp lit when transmitting, and that was enough to keep damaging RF out of the receiver. Actually, it was a little more compicted than that because the contact closure of the telegraph key had to be "conditioned" with an RC filter to avoid transmitting "clicks" caused by too-rapid rise and fall times of the circuit. Fun stuff, figuring all that out. As soon as I got re-licensed as an Extra-class (AC8NS) operator I bought an Elecraft KX3 and an Elecraft 100 watt linear amplifier to go with it. But by then I was making a decent income and was about to retire, so DIY rigs were mainly limited to antenna construction.

This type of "listen while transmitting" operation is called full break-in keying or QSK. It was not common during that era, and I never did a QSO with a ham who had similar capability. But I was able to receive signals in between the dits and dahs of my telegraph key while transmitting. Can't do this very well with optical-eme because of the two and half second round-trip time delay, even with a bi-static rig that would easily allow it, maybe even require it because of the backscatter problem.
Baluncore said:
Lasers, aimed at retroreflectors on the Moon, transmit PRBS "ranging codes" that enable precise transit times to be measured. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_code
Yeah, but I am not trying to measure precise transit times. I am only incidentally measuring the distance to the Moon, to determine the time delay required for alignment of received bits with transmitted bits. No need for extreme precision either. With one micosecond wide bits in the message, delay measurement to within a few hundred nanoseconds (NOT picoseconds) will be more than adequate.

The Gold codes might be useful for initial signal acquisition, but I haven't looked further into that. Some help will be appreciated once the transmitter and receiver are bult. The plan is to use an online ephemeris to obtain an initial delay and then "seek" with a software servomechanism the actual delay. This may be as simple as decreasing the "message" bit density by combining adjacent bits, and perhaps manually "tweaking" the delay to maximize the received signal before transmitting the "real" message frames. I am going to try to do this "tweaking" in software after building the transmitter and bi-static receiver. In it's simplist form, the transmitter will remain on during the entire transmit interval, repeating this transmission perhaps at a faster rate so more photons are collected. Lots of experimenting needed to see what works, but again the KISS principle applies.
Baluncore said:
Optical DX on Earth between mountains, uses LED, not laser sources because the laser light rapidly looses collimation in the atmosphere, so 150 watts of LED with a lens is actually more productive than laser.
LEDs have a large-area emitter compared to a diode laser. They do not collimate well because their light output is incoherent. Their main advantage for communications experiments is they do not currently require any sort of license.

As for laser light rapidly losing collimation as it propagates through the atmosphere... this will be true for ANY light source. Nothing special about lasers except optical coherence, and apparently that IS important for collimation as well as efficient power transmission. Anything emitting light through the Earth's atmosphere experiences a minimum of one arc-second of divergence because of the atmosphere's negative focal-length lensing effect.

The Earth is surrounded by a thin layer of gas that is concave at the surface and convex as you move further out into space. We live inside a "weak" spherical lens and nothing can be done about it unless you want to operate in the vacuum of outer space, like Hubble or JWST. Our atmosphere also has a variable index of refraction, affected by turbulance and aerosols, but mainly decreasing with altitude because the atmospheric pressure decreases with elevation above sea level.

I am "pretty sure" those are all good suggestions, but I would like to do optical-eme as simple as possible, so hams worldwide all have a chance to participate. Marconi started with sparks for his transmitters, the Wright brothers with bicycles before building airplanes, and I stand firmly on the shoulders of Claude Shannon and others (such a Joe Taylor K1JT who created wsjt-x weak-signal communication protocols) trying now to send a few zillion photons to the Moon and receiving some of them back for statistical quantum detection.

What could possibly go wrong with that? Some asshat could decide to write a regulation that prohibits optical moonbounce without jumping through a string of buerocratic hoops. I would then have to somehow move into international waters for optical-eme if that were occur, maybe set up on an oil platform? Or on a position-stabilized ship. I wonder how much those gigantic cruise ships rock-and-roll in the ocean waves? Does anyone do serious astronomy while at sea? I bet the salt-water laden air ruins the "seeing". It sure doesn't help me, living within a mile of the Gulf.

Thanks for responding y'all! I apologize for the late reply.
 
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  • #29
Hop-AC8NS said:
I don't know what performing an FFT of the TX*RX product would do, or if it is even possible to do that.
I think you missed my point about a long RF sweep of the modulation. It is really just Doppler ranging, using a chirp.

Modulate and transmit the light for 2.6 seconds, then receive and demodulate the reflected light using a repeated sweep of the same DDS sweep generator. When the received noisy signal is multiplied by the clean repeat of the transmitted modulation, (synchronous detection), there will be a difference frequency between the sweeps due to the EME transit time and the time delay between the T and R sweeps. The FFT of that noisy product will have one audio? signal peak, at that one low difference frequency, with noise elsewhere in the spectrum. That FFT can be power spectrum accumulated, to enhance the peak. The width of the peak will be determined by the variation in range to the patches of lunar reflective surface.

From one site, you can alternate every 2.6 seconds, between transmitting and receiving. There is ample time to compute and accumulate the FFT using a PC, while transmitting the next sweep, and you do not need to store data older than 5.2 seconds.

If it can be made to work from a single site, you can then establish many remote "listeners" without transmitters, who can use an identical GPS synchronised DDS sweep generator for receive. The internal structure of a DDS, makes it possible to generate a precise and repeatable sweep, by accumulating a constant into the phase step, or frequency setting register.

As I see it, that is the minimum system needed to move forward with optical EME.
 
  • #30
Baluncore said:
I think you missed my point about a long RF sweep of the modulation.
You are right about that! What radio frequency should I be starting the modulation with? How much in frequency do we "chirp" the long RF sweep? How fast is the sweep of the modulation to occur? Over what duration does this sweep occur?

I am not saying your suggestion isn't reasonable. I am saying that I don't understand how to do it. Details, please!