Organic: How is nucleophilic addition to a carbonyl carbon possible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms of nucleophilic addition to carbonyl compounds, particularly contrasting this process with SN2 reactions. Participants explore the differences in reactivity and the nature of intermediates formed during these reactions.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that while hydroxide is not a leaving group in SN2 reactions, an intermediate with R-O- is formed during nucleophilic addition to carbonyls, prompting questions about the differences in these mechanisms.
  • Another participant mentions that RO- species can participate in transesterifications, which are a form of nucleophilic addition-elimination, although they express uncertainty about the original question.
  • A different participant explains that the carbonyl carbon has a greater partial positive charge due to resonance with oxygen, making it more electrophilic compared to a tetrahedral carbon, which loses electron density inductively.
  • One participant argues that OH- can act as a leaving group under specific conditions, such as when a stronger base like NH3 attacks the carbonyl in acidic conditions.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the electrophilicity of the carbonyl carbon is due to induction, with oxygen pulling electron density away, and suggests that the stability of the tetrahedral intermediate is less significant after the initial reaction.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of hydroxide as a leaving group and the factors influencing the electrophilicity of carbonyl carbons. There is no consensus on the original question regarding the differences between nucleophilic addition and SN2 reactions.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on specific conditions, such as acidity or the presence of stronger bases, which may not be universally applicable. The discussion also highlights the complexity of electron density interactions and resonance effects, which are not fully resolved.

Spirochete
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We all know that hydroxide will never be a leaving group in an SN2 reaction, no matter how strong the nucleophile. Yet an intermediate containing R-O- is created when a nucleophile adds to a carbonyl compound. It looks sort of like a leaving group, but it's still attatched to the molecule.

What is the apparently huge difference between these two reactions that allows this to happen? The only difference I can see is that SN2 involves a pair of SP3 electrons and the addition to a carbonyl involves a pair of P orbital electrons being shifted. By VSEPR the intermediate has its new electron pair in an SP3 orbital, but I know lone pair orbitals can be unpredictable.
 
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OH- is not a good substitution group for either SN3 or nucleophilic addition eliminations - however species of RO- can become involved in transesterifications which is a type of nucleophilic addition eliminations. I'm not quite certain what your question is exactly.
 
well somebody else gave me an explanation that was satisfactory. A carbonyl carbon has much more partial positive charge because it loses electron density to oxygen through resonance, whereas a tetrahedral carbon can only lose electron density inductively which is generally a weaker force.
 
OH- can be a leaving group if a stronger base such as NH3 attacks the carbonyl compound under acidic conditions.
 
The carbonyl carbon is electrophilic due to induction. The oxygens pull electron density away from this carbon, making it more vulnerable to nucleophilic attack. The stability of the tetrahedral intermediate is less relevant, as this is what you get after the initial kinetic reaction of negative and positive sites.
 

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