Painleve chart for FRW spacetime

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and implications of a Painleve chart for Friedmann-Robertson-Walker (FRW) spacetime, specifically focusing on the metric in both Cartesian and polar coordinates. Participants explore the characteristics of comoving observers and the nature of the metric under different conditions, including a matter-dominated equation of state.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant derived a metric for polar coordinates from the FRW metric for flat spatial slices, proposing a transformation to make the spatial part of the metric static.
  • Another participant confirmed the correctness of the derived metric and noted that it produces the correct Einstein tensor.
  • There is a discussion about the general principle of Painleve-type charts, particularly regarding the relationship between coordinate time and proper time for Painleve observers.
  • One participant attempted to derive the metric using a geodesic approach, leading to a differential equation for the observer's velocity.
  • There is a question about the applicability of the derived method to FRW spacetime with a closed universe (k = 1), specifically regarding the nature of comoving spatial hyperslices.
  • Participants discuss the implications of gravitational redshift in the context of Painleve charts and the behavior of static observers in relation to comoving observers.
  • One participant initially suggested that observers beyond a certain horizon cannot send signals back, but later retracted this statement, clarifying that comoving observers can emerge from behind the horizon.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the validity of the derived metrics and the principles of Painleve observers, but there remains uncertainty regarding the implications of the horizon in the context of FRW spacetime and the nature of comoving observers in closed universe scenarios.

Contextual Notes

Some participants noted that the discussion involves complex transformations and assumptions about the nature of spacetime, particularly in relation to different curvature parameters (k = 0 and k = 1) and the implications for observer behavior.

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In a thread a while back, Mentz114 posted a Painleve chart for FRW spacetime; here's the link to the post:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2985307&postcount=60

He posted the metric in Cartesian coordinates, and I've derived a corresponding metric for polar coordinates. (I'm doing this so I can then see what the worldlines of "comoving" observers look like in this chart.) [Edit: originally I thought my answer looked different than what I expected based on Mentz114's post, but I made an error in deriving it; the error is now corrected below.]

Here's what I'm getting: I start with the FRW metric for k = 0 (i.e., flat spatial slices) and with a matter-dominated equation of state, so the scale factor is proportional to t^{\frac{2}{3}}. (Mentz114 didn't say so, but it looks to me like that's the equation of state for the metric he wrote down.) I pick units so that the constant of proportionality for the scale factor is 1 (i.e., a(t) = 1 at t = 1), so

ds^{2} = - dt^{2} + t^{\frac{4}{3}} \left( dr'^{2} + r'^{2} d\Omega^{2} \right)

We want a coordinate transformation that will make the purely spatial part of the metric static (i.e., independent of t). I try this:

r' = t^{- \frac{2}{3}} r

(leaving all other coordinates the same), which gives

dr' = t^{- \frac{2}{3}} dr - \frac{2 r}{3} t^{- \frac{5}{3}} dt

Substituting into the metric gives, after some algebra,

ds^{2} = - dt^{2} \left( 1 - \frac{4 r^{2}}{9 t^{2}} \right) - \frac{4 r}{3 t} dt dr + dr^{2} + r^{2} d\Omega^{2}

If the above is correct, then the worldlines of comoving observers are easy. We haven't changed the t coordinate so for comoving observers we want ds^{2} = - dt^{2}. That gives:

\frac{dr}{dt} = \frac{2 r}{3t}

Does all this look correct?
 
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It looks OK to me.

From the line element I get the metric as (just checking)

<br /> \pmatrix{-1+\frac{4\,{r}^{2}}{9\,{t}^{2}} &amp; -\frac{2\,r}{3\,t} &amp; 0 &amp; 0\cr -\frac{2\,r}{3\,t} &amp; 1 &amp; 0 &amp; 0\cr 0 &amp; 0 &amp; {r}^{2} &amp; 0\cr 0 &amp; 0 &amp; 0 &amp; {r}^{2}\,{sin\left( \theta\right) }^{2}}<br />

and this gives the right Einstein tensor.
 
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Thanks! So it seems like the general principle of a Painleve-type chart is that the "Painleve observers" move at velocity \beta = \frac{dr}{dt}, and the line element looks like:

ds^{2} = - dt^{2} \left( 1 - \beta^{2} \right) - 2 \beta dt dr + dr^{2} + r^{2} d\Omega^{2}

Also that the coordinate time in this chart *is* the proper time for Painleve observers, which in the FRW case are the "comoving" observers (I had speculated in the other thread that this was *not* the case, but it appears I was wrong).
 
It's ingenious to derive it by requiring the S3 hyperslices. I tried doing it by calculating the acceleration vector for a general 4-velocity and setting it to zero and failed. This was some time ago and I don't remember why.

You're right about the general principle, which is to replace the spatial coord by one corrected with \beta \tau so it becomes comoving and t=\tau.[I corrected the typo in my post , g00 had the wrong sign.]

It is possible to derive the metric by the geodesic route. Requiring that dt/d\tau=1 means that our observer has 4-velocity u^\mu=(1,\beta,0,0) (mixing tensor and vector notation). Calculating the acceleration u_{\mu;\nu} u^\nu gives a first-order simultaneous differential equation.
<br /> \frac{d}{d\,t}\,\beta =-\beta\,\left( \frac{d}{d\,r}\,\beta\right) -\frac{2\,r}{9\,{t}^{2}}<br />
The solution is your result for \beta. But this much longer than your derivation.
 
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Mentz114 said:
It's ingenious to derive it by requiring the S3 hyperslices.

Do you mean the FRW spacetime with k = 1 (i.e., closed universe, assuming zero cosmological constant)? For that case the "comoving" spatial hyperslices are not flat. Does that spacetime admit any slicing with flat spatial slices?
 
PeterDonis said:
Do you mean the FRW spacetime with k = 1 (i.e., closed universe, assuming zero cosmological constant)? For that case the "comoving" spatial hyperslices are not flat. Does that spacetime admit any slicing with flat spatial slices?

I'm sorry my remark "It's ingenious to derive it by requiring the S3 hyperslices" is not relevant and has sowed confusion.

It's interesting that in the comoving coords you derived the 'gravitational' redshift is the familiar 1/\sqrt{1-\beta^2}.
 
Mentz114 said:
It's interesting that in the comoving coords you derived the 'gravitational' redshift is the familiar 1/\sqrt{1-\beta^2}.

Yes, it looks like that is a general feature of Painleve charts since g_tt always assumes the same form in terms of beta. Another way of expressing this would be that "static" observers in this chart (i.e, observers who hold station at a constant r, theta, phi) will have to accelerate to hold station, with an acceleration that increases with r, and the "gravitational redshift" they experience can be thought of as due to their acceleration relative to the observer at r = 0.

Also, the "static" observers will see the "comoving" observers falling past them with a speed beta. Since beta goes to 1 when r = 3/2 t, there is a "horizon" there, and beyond that horizon there are no static observers, i.e., no observers holding station at constant r, theta, phi (because they would have to move faster than light), and no observers beyond the horizon can send signals back to the region "above" it. All very interesting parallels to a black hole spacetime.
 
PeterDonis said:
no observers beyond the horizon can send signals back to the region "above" it.

On thinking this over, I realized it's not correct. I should have realized that it can't be, because there are "comoving" observers who emerge from "behind" the horizon! This follows easily from the formulas I derived: the horizon is the line r = 3/2 t, but "comoving" worldlines have the equations

r = r_{0} t^{\frac{2}{3}}

where r_0 is the radius of that particular worldline at t = 1. (You can see from my derivation that r_0 is also the "r" coordinate of that particular "comoving" observer in the standard FRW chart.) For any value of r_0, there is some value of t at which the corresponding comoving worldline intersects the horizon; before that time t, that comoving observer is behind the horizon, but after it, he has emerged from it.

So the horizon is not a complete causal boundary in the spacetime the way a black hole horizon is.
 

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