Pauli's exclusion principle bosons

Click For Summary
The discussion clarifies the distinction between bosons and fermions, emphasizing that fermions obey the Pauli exclusion principle, which prevents multiple identical fermions from occupying the same quantum state. Bosons, in contrast, can occupy the same state and have integer spin, while fermions have half-integer spin. The conversation highlights that all elementary particles are classified as either bosons or fermions, with bosons often acting as force carriers in nature. Additionally, it is noted that certain composite particles, like liquid helium, can exhibit bosonic behavior. Overall, the properties of these particles are fundamental to understanding the structure of matter and the nature of quantum states.
  • #31
ZapperZ said:
Can someone else explain to me the previous posting?
Let me help :devil:
Did Indistinguishable particle statistics just become distinguishable?
All physical states are described by quantum numbers. Some physical states occur with certain fixed values that describe a particle type, such as an electron or a proton. When two states are indistinguishable by those type-identifying quantum numbers (i.e. they have the same values) then we say the particles are identical. Two such identical particle states may, however, still be distinguishable by their other quantum numbers.
Are two electrons in a spin-triplet state with l=1 angular momentum quantum number "distinguishable" by the "spatial quantum numbers"? Huh?
Yes. Exactly which spatial quantum numbers are different depends on the frame of reference and whether l=1 refers to individual states or the composite orbital angular momentum.

The form of the rule I first quoted is most appropriate to describing two identical particles in a canonical frame of reference defined by other objects (such as electrons in an atom). If one has only the two identical particles, then it is best to transform to the CM frame where the rule requires even L+S (L and S both composite) when all other quantum numbers are the same (indistinguishable). The rule is not even limited to identical particles. Any two complex systems which are indistinguishable by their quantum numbers will obey the rule, because the critical significance of indistinguishability is about quantum numbers not particles.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
mikeyork said:
Let me help :devil:

All physical states are described by quantum numbers. Some physical states occur with certain fixed values that describe a particle type, such as an electron or a proton. When two states are indistinguishable by those type-identifying quantum numbers (i.e. they have the same values) then we say the particles are identical. Two such identical particle states may, however, still be distinguishable by their other quantum numbers.

Yes. Exactly which spatial quantum numbers are different depends on the frame of reference and whether l=1 refers to individual states or the composite orbital angular momentum.

The form of the rule I first quoted is most appropriate to describing two identical particles in a canonical frame of reference defined by other objects (such as electrons in an atom). If one has only the two identical particles, then it is best to transform to the CM frame where the rule requires even L+S (L and S both composite) when all other quantum numbers are the same (indistinguishable). The rule is not even limited to identical particles. Any two complex systems which are indistinguishable by their quantum numbers will obey the rule, because the critical significance of indistinguishability is about quantum numbers not particles.

I think the issue here is this notion of distinguishability/indistinguishability (sic). I have yet to hear Mike give a reasonable explanation how his "generalized exclusion principle" explains the spin triplet superconductors. I believe it has something to do with his notion of distinguishable particles. So let me pose a question.

Lets say I have a gas of real photons, all in m_s=+1. Mike, are these particles distinguishable or indistinguishable according to your general exclusion rule. Please do not construe this as an attack, I am trying to understand your position. To be honest, though, I am "not sure" of a lot of your statements.
 
  • #33
Norman said:
I think the issue here is this notion of distinguishability/indistinguishability (sic). I have yet to hear Mike give a reasonable explanation how his "generalized exclusion principle" explains the spin triplet superconductors.
I don't see what the difficulty is. My generalized rule for S=1, which is odd, says that the electrons must be distinguishable by some other quantum numbers. This is exactly what the Pauli rule says (that no two electrons can exist in the same state). If you think this creates a problem for spin triplet superconductors, then you must think they violate the Pauli rule. However, there is in fact no problem because the Pauli rule, in the case that their spins line up, says only that the electron states must be distinguishable by other quantum numbers.

More specifically, my rule says that spin triplet electron pairs must have odd L in their CM frame (where they differ by having opposite momenta, of course). In any frame of reference, they differ either in their momenta or in their third component of orbital angular momentum, depending on which representation you choose, or, in the case that they have S=1, M=0, then they differ in their spin alignments.
I believe it has something to do with his notion of distinguishable particles.
All physical states, whether of identifiable particles or not, are distinguishable or not by their quantum numbers (and frame of reference) and only by their quantum numbers (and frame of reference). If one refers to distinguishability or not of electrons, one is clearly referring to quantum numbers other than those that define the states to be those of electrons.

It is hard to understand the spin-statistics theorem if you don't have a terminology that makes it easy to be specific about state distinguishability for identical particles, because the fundamental origin of the theorem lies in the properties of state vectors under state permutation and what happens when those states become indistinguishable. This is why I like to use the terms "indistinguishability" to refer to states and "identity" to refer to particles. However, this difference is only relevant when referring to states of specific particles, because, in the more general case, the spin-statistics theorem applies to any component states, whether discrete identifiable particles or not, that are distinguishable (or indistinguishable) by their quantum numbers (or groups of their quantum numbers). So, ultimately, whether we use "indistinguishable" or "identical" doesn't really matter as long as we are specific about which groups of quantum numbers we are referring to (e.g. selected quantum numbers of component states or the complete component states).
So let me pose a question.

Lets say I have a gas of real photons, all in m_s=+1. Mike, are these particles distinguishable or indistinguishable according to your general exclusion rule. Please do not construe this as an attack, I am trying to understand your position. To be honest, though, I am "not sure" of a lot of your statements.
If they all have m_s = +1 (and s=1) then each pair will have composite spin S=2. This is even, so it is ok (but not necessary) for their remaining properties to leave them indistinguishable (i.e. have no observably different quantum numbers).
 
Last edited:
  • #34
Norman said:
I think the issue here is this notion of distinguishability/indistinguishability (sic). I have yet to hear Mike give a reasonable explanation how his "generalized exclusion principle" explains the spin triplet superconductors.

It has occurred to me that part of the difficulty you might be having in understanding this is not seeing the significance of the frame of reference. Unlike individual spins, which are defined in a Lorentz-invariant way, spin orientations and composite spin are frame-dependent. So a spin triplet in one frame will not, in general be an exact spin triplet in another frame but a mixed state (due to the Wigner rotations on the individual spins). In the case of superconducting triplet pairs, it is the total angular momentum in the CM frame (obtained by vector addition of the composite spin and orbital a.m.) not the composite spin (triplet obtained by vector addition of the individual spins), that defines the intrinsic angular momentum (spin) of the composite system.

My original rule, as I said several posts ago, is only really relevant in a frame in which the spatial co-ordinates or momenta can be the same, such as a canonical frame defined by (say) a nucleus at the origin. In the CM frame, the momenta are necessarily opposite, so they differ and the standard Pauli rule cannot be applied directly. That is why you need a CM frame rule, which turns out to be the even L+S condition. This has been known and understood for donkeys' years (although for reasons that were not completely correct).

But both versions have the same origin in permutation not being a physical transformation but an artifice of the state descriptions you employ. If you don't like these observable exclusion rules, but want to revert to the old but insufficiently precise Symmetrization Postulate instead, then here is the correctly qualified form of it:

When the rotation which takes the angular co-ordinates of one particle into the other are uniquely specified in an order-dependent way and the same canonical frame of reference is used for spin quantization of both particles, then the combined wavefunction for identical particles can be chosen anti-symmetric under permutation for half-integer spin particles and symmetric for integer spin particles.

(Note that the condition in bold is one that usually applies to the way people construct two-particle states, although it is seldom made explicit. Note also that I wrote "can be chosen" rather than "is" because, perverse though it may seem, one can always arbitrarily introduce an additional order-dependent phase into the direct product Hilbert space, giving a different direct product Hilbert space for each ordering. Of course, no one ever does this, so it is not critical in practice, only in terms of being precise and has no observable consequences.)

However, a simpler symmetrization rule, which gives the correct observable rules (and which follows from the physical non-significance of particle permutation) is:

When both particle states are independently and fully described in an order-independent way, sufficiently to define a unique wave function for the combined system, then that wavefunction can always be chosen to be permutation symmetric, regardless of particle identity or spin. (See my paper cited earlier for the proof that this gives the observable rules and the physical equivalence to the (suitably qualified) conventional Symmetrization Postulate.)

All this is irrelevant, however, to my original point -- which was that the significant difference between bosons and fermions is that only the latter can give us chemistry, life and nuclear energy.
 
  • #35
According to the Brightsen Nucleon Cluster Model (http://www.brightsenmodel.phoenixrising-web.net ) isotopes with Z > 2 may be composed of 2- nucleon "boson" clusters [NP], where P=proton, N=neutron (plus) 3- nucleon "fermion" clusters [PNP, NPN]--also antimatter. Due to equation {3[NP]boson = 1[PNP]fermion + 1[NPN]fermion} no isotope can have a single unique nucleon cluster structure, thus providing basis of energy levels for isotopes. Take for example, 3-Lithium-6 that is formed by either 3 bosons {[NP][NP][NP]} or 2 fermions {[PNP][NPN], well documented by experiment (see literature in above web site). Matter - antimatter cluster interactions are also possible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
14K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
Replies
9
Views
4K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K