MHB Perfect Sets in R^k are uncountable

  • Thread starter Thread starter Math Amateur
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Sets
Click For Summary
The discussion revolves around the proof of Theorem 2.43 from Walter Rudin's "Principles of Mathematical Analysis," specifically addressing the uncountability of perfect sets in R^k. The main concern is the requirement that each neighborhood V_n must be constructed to ensure that V_n intersects with the perfect set P, which raises questions about the necessity of this condition. Participants clarify that since the points x_n are limit points, any neighborhood V_n will inherently intersect with P, thus suggesting that the explicit mention of this condition may not be necessary. The conversation emphasizes the understanding of open sets and neighborhoods in the context of topology, particularly the role of balls in R^k. Overall, the discussion highlights the nuances in interpreting Rudin's proof and the foundational concepts of topology.
Math Amateur
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,920
Reaction score
48
I am reading Walter Rudin's book, Principles of Mathematical Analysis.

Currently I am studying Chapter 2:"Basic Topology".

I am concerned that I do not fully understand the proof of Theorem 2.43 concerning the uncountability of perfect sets in $$R^k$$.

Rudin, Theorem 2.43 reads as follows:
View attachment 3806

In the above proof, Rudin writes:

"Let $$V_1$$ be any neighbourhood of $$x_1$$. If $$V_1$$ consists of all $$y \in R^k$$ such that $$| y - x_1 | \lt r$$, the closure $$\overline{V_1}$$ of $$V_1$$ is the set of all $$y \in R^k$$ such that $$| y - x_1 | \le r$$."

Now, I am assuming that the above two sentences that I have quoted from Rudin's proof are a recipe or formula to be followed in constructing $$V_2, V_3, V_4$$, and so on ... ... is that right?

I will assume that is the case and proceed ...

Rudin, then writes:

"Suppose $$V_n$$ has been constructed, so that $$V_n \cap P$$ is not empty ... ... "My question is as follows:

Why does Rudin explicitly mention that he requires $$V_n$$ to be constructed so that $$V_n \cap P$$ is not empty?

Surely if $$V_n$$ is constructed in just the same way as $$V_1$$ then $$V_n$$ is a neighbourhood of $$x_n$$ ... ... and therefore we are assured that $$V_n \cap P$$ is not empty ... ... aren't we? ... ... and so there is no need to mention that $$V_n$$ needs to be constructed in a way to assure this ...

Can someone please clarify this issue ...

Hope someone can help ...

Peter
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Hi Peter,

Rudin is constructing some specific neighborhood for those $x_{i}$. (Usually called $B(x_{i},r_{i})$, balls of center $x_{i}$ and radius $r_{i}$).

What he says next is , suppose $V_{n}$ is constructed in this way, then $V_{n}\cap P$ is non empty
 
Fallen Angel said:
Hi Peter,

Rudin is constructing some specific neighborhood for those $x_{i}$. (Usually called $B(x_{i},r_{i})$, balls of center $x_{i}$ and radius $r_{i}$).

What he says next is , suppose $V_{n}$ is constructed in this way, then $V_{n}\cap P$ is non empty
Thanks for the help, Fallen Angel ...

But ... I must say I still have a problem, I think, ... because Rudin does not say:

"If $$V_n$$ has been so constructed then $$V_n \cap P$$ is not empty"He says:

"Suppose $$V_n$$ has been constructed so that $$V_n \cap P$$ is not empty"

which seems to me that $$V_n$$ has to be constructed in a specific way to assure that $$V_n \cap P$$ is not empty.

What do you think?

Peter

***NOTE***

Although I differ in my interpretation of Rudin's sentence ... I suspect that you are correct given the 'facts' of the mathematics ...
 
Last edited:
Hi Peter,

Reading again my post I think it wasn't clear.

By definition, all this are limit points, so for any neighborhood $V_{n}$ of $x_{n}$ we have $V_{n}\cap P\neq \emptyset$.

Now in $\Bbb{R}^{k}$ the balls form a basis for the usual topology, which means that every open set can be written as a countable union of balls.

A set $U\subseteq\Bbb{R}^{k}$ being open means that for every $u\in U$ exists a radius $r_{u}$ such that $u\in B(u,r_{u})\subseteq U$.

Then in the proof we can consider balls centered at the points $x_{1},x_{2},\ldots$ as neighborhoods.
 
We all know the definition of n-dimensional topological manifold uses open sets and homeomorphisms onto the image as open set in ##\mathbb R^n##. It should be possible to reformulate the definition of n-dimensional topological manifold using closed sets on the manifold's topology and on ##\mathbb R^n## ? I'm positive for this. Perhaps the definition of smooth manifold would be problematic, though.

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 44 ·
2
Replies
44
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
10K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K