Perpetual Motion: Particle Spin & Earth's Role

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of perpetual motion in relation to particle spin and the Earth's role. Participants explore whether the spin of elementary particles can be classified as perpetual motion and its implications for the laws of thermodynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that elementary particles, such as electrons, have a constant spin that does work, questioning why this is not considered perpetual motion.
  • Others argue that particle spin is not motion in the classical sense, as it is a quantum number rather than a physical rotation.
  • One participant states that perpetual motion is only problematic when energy is extracted from it, suggesting that while spin stores energy, it does not generate it.
  • Another participant clarifies that the term "perpetual motion" typically refers to devices that produce more energy than they consume, which may not align with the traditional understanding of motion.
  • There is a mention that both types of perpetual motion are referred to in discussions, indicating a potential overlap in definitions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether particle spin constitutes perpetual motion, with no consensus reached on the implications for thermodynamics or the definitions of perpetual motion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the distinction between classical motion and quantum spin, suggesting that definitions and interpretations may vary significantly. The discussion also touches on the extraction of energy from spins, which remains unresolved.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring quantum mechanics, thermodynamics, and the philosophical implications of perpetual motion concepts.

samsara15
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Elementary particles spin. So does the Earth. Spin does work. The spin of electrons and other elementary partlces never stops, or slows down. Why isn't the spin of particles considered to be perpetual motion? Doesn't particle spin violate the laws of Thermodynamics?
 
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Spin does work.
Not without slowing down.

Why isn't the spin of particles considered to be perpetual motion?
The spin of particles is not motion. They are not rotating. Spin is just a quantum number, similar to charge.

Doesn't particle spin violate the laws of Thermodynamics?
No.
 
There's nothing unphysical about perpetual motion unless you try to extract energy from it. Throw a ball in space and it will keep moving until something stops it.

The spin merely stores energy; it doesn't generate it. If you have a spin lattice, you might be able to extract some energy by aligning all the spins, but then you are done. You can't extract anymore energy until you unalign the spins, which takes all the energy you got out. Same basic story is true for all "perpetual motion" scenarios.
 
The buzz phrase "perpetual motion" means an over unity, more energy out than in type device. It may not seem technically correct, but that is what it means.
 
Both types are called perpetual motion.
 

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