PhD Qualifying Exams -- Are they being phased out?

[Vanadium 50]

Passing requisite courses does not always mean being able to pass tests for the Qualifying Examinations.

I think this is an important point.

The qual is in a different format than finals - usually you have more involved written problems, more time to do them, and there is also an oral component.

Also, you can ask questions on the qual that probe combing what is taught in multiple classes.

You also don't want to pin the class requirements too closely to the qual., I didn't have a grad classical mechanics class, but I had Goldstein as an undergrad. I would argue a PhD physicist should know some classical mechanics - how do you check this?

As an example, I would say to compute the energy levels of the hydrogen atom in a weak electric field E in the z-direction is a fair qual question. It's not a good QM final question because it takes too long and requires more math than most hydrogen atom questions,

 

[Dr Transport]

Yes it does.
I don't think statistics are routinely kept - it's whatever AIP decided to do whenever they decide to do it.

Whenever I have been involved in the admissions process, what other schools decision process might be seldom is even mentioned, so it's hard to tell. All we have are anecdotes around a coffee table.

It used to be published in the AIP/APS book of graduate programs. I'm not even sure that exists any longer,. The closest is the AIP gradschool shopper, https://gradschoolshopper.com/browse/. In the few minutes I looked, I didn't any mention of average test scores, but then again, I only cursory looked at the featured programs. I did find a digitized version of what one
https://www.google.com/books/editio...s_in_Physics_Astron/v6hYAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

I will say that departments keep track of where their students come from and if there is a trend amongst students from a particular school, they notice and use that info later, good or bad.

 

[gwnorth]

If it's true, that doesn't bode well for international applicants.

 

[andresB]

I will agree that quals hit you hard and fast. At my school you have to complete them within one year of being accepted to the PhD program. One year to solidify 4 years of material is a tall order. Especially when you have other things on your plate.

One year seems like a reasonable term for quals, though that depends on other considerations. I think it works better for a 5-year-long Ph.D. For the European 3-year-long Ph.D I don't think doing quals is good at all.

In my University the topics were the same for everyone independently of their research topic: stat mech, classical mech, quantum mech, and EM. Those topics were covered in two graduate-level courses each semester, so the students should be ready for the exams after one year.

 

[Dr Transport]

I will agree that quals hit you hard and fast. At my school you have to complete them within one year of being accepted to the PhD program. One year to solidify 4 years of material is a tall order. Especially when you have other things on your plate.

Where I went to grad school, you were accepted into the Masters program. After passing the quals, you were awarded your masters and accepted into the PhD program.

Ours had 4 sections, mechanics and stat mech, electromagnetics and special relativity, QM and a spectialty topic of your choice from solid state, optics, plasma or astrophysics. Two sections on Wednesday, the other two on Friday, 9-noon. Three questions of 4 for each section, so you had about half an hour per question. I studied for a year for them.

 

[Vanadium 50]

If it's true, that doesn't bode well for international applicants.

If what's true?

International stuidents have had a tough time these past few years in any event.

 

[nuuskur]

Perhaps, if the student has been away from their field for a while or is switching from one field to another, it is necessary to do one of these qualifying exams - just to see if they are up to snuff. I finished my Msc in math and went straight to a Phd programme (in math), no exams, just needed to figure out a research topic and negotiate with the to-be supervisor.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Most(?) US phd students do not get a masters degree before starting their PhD. Having a masters seems like a reasonable way to get out of quals.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Having a masters seems like a reasonable way to get out of quals

Where and when I went to grad school, the qual was the same as the nasters comp. However, the required passing score for the PhD was higher. ALso, studnts who failed the qiual usually got masters as "lovely parting gifts", so I don't see this working out.

 

[gwnorth]

If what's true?

International stuidents have had a tough time these past few years in any event.

If by forgoing GRE/PGRE scores grad programs are instead defaulting to predominantly drawing their admits from a small subset of elite US based private undergraduate programs, the same way that those elite undergraduate programs disproportionately admit students from a subset of elite private high schools.

The majority of the top English language graduate Physics programs globally are housed in US and UK universities and so they attract a lot of international students. With Brexit doing a number on research funding in the UK, that's becoming an even less viable option due to higher tuition costs and lower levels of funding making attendance a poor prospect economically for international students. That leaves the US which typically provides better funding for even international students, but if by foregoing the GRE/PGRE programs are going to not give consideration to students coming from less well known institutions, it just further entrenches inequality and lack of diversity in the sciences, the exact thing that eliminating the tests was supposed to combat against.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The majority of the top English language graduate Physics programs globally are housed in US and UK

Cough...cough...Toronto...cough...

(Once in a blue moon I feel compelled to defend TimHortonLand)

The argument that the PGRE opens doors is, I feel, valid. But be careful of making it within the walls of a US university, because everybody knows that standardized tests are eeeeeevil. They don't want to hear the argument that it's all in how you use them. If the PGRE causes you to give a candidate from Spelman College and a so-so GPA an offer, isn't that a good thing?

International students at most UDS institutions are at least normally capped. If you have enough support that can be applied to internationals for N students, enrolling more than N will be trouble. I agree that the PGRE is a useful tool in picking who. But it's also a good tool for domestics, despite the howls of anguish. But the last few years, Covid has caused more problems than the finer points of admission.

 

[gwnorth]

I did say "majority" not all :)

Graduate funding, even for domestic students however is not the greatest in Canada except for the very elite few.

 

[bob012345]

At the University of Illinois Physics Dept. (back in the ancient days when I was there) you had two chances to pass the qual. But when you first entered they gave you what was called a 'free shot' at the qual. If you pass, you pass but if you fail it does not count against your two chances. You could pass outright, fail outright or be required to take an oral. On my free shot I got to the oral but was nervous and mucked it up. I never did do as well on my two official chances...

Later, I transferred to another school and passed their qual.

 

[andresB]

At the University of Illinois Physics Dept. (back in the ancient days when I was there) you had two chances to pass the qual. But when you first entered they gave you what was called a 'free shot' at the qual. If you pass, you pass but if you fail it does not count against your two chances. You could pass outright, fail outright or be required to take an oral. On my free shot I got to the oral but was nervous and mucked it up. I never did do as well on my two official chances...

Later, I transferred to another school and passed their qual.

The system seems strange to me. At my university, if you do very well in the written exams you skip the oral section. The interview is reserved for when you do well but not that well.

 

[bob012345]

The system seems strange to me. At my university, if you do very well in the written exams you skip the oral section. The interview is reserved for when you do well but not that well.

That's what I meant. You only do an oral if you did not do well enough to pass outright.

 

[andresB]

That's what I meant. You only do an oral if you did not do well enough to pass outright.

Ok, got it, my misreading.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

I dread the oral, since I have a stammer...

 

[Vanadium 50]

The faculty had the opposite opinion about orals when I took them. "If you aced the written, you should have no trouble with the orals"

 

[Paul Colby]

At UW Madison (1980s) we had a qualifying exam the first year. A reasonable number didn’t make it passed this. The prelim included an oral exam and came like 4 years later. Then the thesis defense which you had to work at failing though it wasn’t unheard of.

 

[hutchphd]

At UW Madison (1980s) we had a qualifying exam the first year.

Was this at the end of the year to allow incoming deficiencies to be made up ? (and TA'ing for a year....he says suspiciously)

 

[Paul Colby]

Was this at the end of the year to allow incoming deficiencies to be made up ?

Don’t recall if the official reasoning was communicated or not. It certainly could have been. It was a pretty inclusive place all in all. Most common themes amongst us involved weeding as a theme.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Cough...cough...Toronto...cough...

(Once in a blue moon I feel compelled to defend TimHortonLand)

Come on, what is it with you and Canada? And you are the only person in the world that has ever referred to Canada as "TimHortonLand" -- especially as there are Tim Hortons available in certain US states.

 

[berkeman]

especially as there are Tim Hortons available in certain US states

Hey, it looks like there is one here in San Jose (Silicon Valley, CA). Are they good?

 

[Mondayman]

I would wholeheartedly recommend not wasting your time at a Tim Hortons. It was never gourmet for sure, but you used to be able to get fresh donuts and muffins and half decent coffee. Now all baked products are reheated (they used to be baked in-house) and the coffee is watery flavorless crap.

Little trivia that most Canadians don't know: Tim Horton died in a car crash, yes. He was also hammered (over twice the legal limit) and taking an amphetamine-barbituate mix driving about 75km/hr the limit.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Hey, it looks like there is one here in San Jose (Silicon Valley, CA). Are they good?

From my experience, different Tim Horton's stores vary in terms of quality -- some stores are amazing, whereas others are mediocre.

I can't speak to the store in San Jose, but my neighbourhood Tim Horton's has great tea and muffins (my favourite is wild blueberry). I don't eat donuts or drink coffee, so I cannot speak to the quality of those.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I would wholeheartedly recommend not wasting your time at a Tim Hortons. It was never gourmet for sure, but you used to be able to get fresh donuts and muffins and half decent coffee. Now all baked products are reheated (they used to be baked in-house) and the coffee is watery flavorless crap.

Is that so in your area? (I see from your profile that you are from Alberta).

The Tim Horton's at my location (in the east end of Toronto) bakes their muffins in house. I know this for a fact, since one time I was told that I had to wait for a fresh batch of my favourite muffins.

 

[Mondayman]

The majority don't here. It is too costly to maintain the facilities and pay a dedicated baker for most stores.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The majority don't here. It is too costly to maintain the facilities and pay a dedicated baker for most stores.

(Note: Thread hijack alert!)

That may well explain the variability in quality at different Tim Horton's stores.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is a Tim Horton's in, of all places, Wheeling, West Virginia. Been there.
There is also one in Katy, Texas. Have not been there.

And not one, but two in Yellowknife.

 

[gmax137]

Come on, what is it with you and Canada? And you are the only person in the world that has ever referred to Canada as "TimHortonLand" -- especially as there are Tim Hortons available in certain US states.

Well, I bet the Canadians have much worse names for the US, ey?