Insights Physics Forums Crackpot Index - Comments

[Nugatory]

Quite so. And your point is, Nugatory? We were talking about how we should or shouldn't make fun of 'cranks' because a) their theories are plain wrong (in which case they should be educated) or b) their theories are unorthodox (which then should be listened to with a grain of salt).

Well, I was talking about Doyle's argument, which is easily and often misappropriated as justification for crankery.

I agree that we shouldn't ridicule cranks. When I see someone dedicating years of their life trying to prove that relativity is wrong, for example, I think it's a sad waste, and mockery is not the answer.

 

[Enigman]

Enigman, true crackpots CANNOT be educated, trust me. And if they have non-mainstream ideas, well, then it's not suitable for PF because our niche is teaching and discussing known, accepted mainstream science.

I am well aware of that Milady, but my concern lies in their ridicule which to me defiles the beauty of the process of education. That is the sole thing I am against.

And Nugatory- Challenger is good...though a bit funny

Me too. I started a thread about this a while back:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=565178

It ended with 13 posts? Doyle's signalling you from the grave, mischief's afoot...

 

[Pythagorean]

No true Scottsman!

 

[Drakkith]

I agree that we shouldn't ridicule cranks. When I see someone dedicating years of their life trying to prove that relativity is wrong, for example, I think it's a sad waste, and mockery is not the answer.

There is no answer. If someone generally thinks they are right and all of science is wrong then I WILL laugh at them. Why? Because it's preferable than feeling sorry for them for no good reason. Honestly, why would I feel sorry for someone who deliberately chooses to go that rout? No, if they have dug themselves into their hole, and retain full capability of getting out of it at any time yet choose not to do so, then I have no pity for them. Just like I have no pity for a common criminal who knows what they do is wrong yet doesn't care.

I am well aware of that Milady, but my concern lies in their ridicule which to me defiles the beauty of the process of education. That is the sole thing I am against.

Once you reach the point of ridicule, the possibility of education has usually been thrown out the window, so I see no relationship between the two.

 

[Pythagorean]

It depends. Some people are quicker to ridicule than others... especially on the internet where everyone has balls of steel.

 

[Enigman]

...Once you reach the point of ridicule, the possibility of education has usually been thrown out the window, so I see no relationship between the two.

And its usually by ridicule that it is thrown as such. What is funny about ignorance I have never been able to comprehend. I will continue to defer on this point and I see no argument that will bring you around, so let us just agree to differ on the merits of ridiculing people and their ignorance.

 

[Drakkith]

And its usually by ridicule that it is thrown as such.

Well that's just wrong. A crackpot has removed themselves from the possibility of being educated well before they are ever ridiculed. The fact that they are ridiculed is a direct result of their inability to accept that they could be wrong and may not know what they are talking about.

 

[Enigman]

Well that's just wrong. A crackpot has removed themselves from the possibility of being educated well before they are ever ridiculed. The fact that they are ridiculed is a direct result of their inability to accept that they could be wrong and may not know what they are talking about.

Inasmuch ridicule starts as education ends we lose the chance to find what would have occurred in case that education had been pursued further. It may well have a negative result but the hope for a positive one is enough for me to pursue it. And in case of a persistent negative result the mentors always have the right to close threads or ban members as they see fit. The non-constructive and unfruitful act of ridicule does not help either the 'crank' nor the 'educator' (shall we say), except perhaps giving a momentary pleasure of superiority in the later. As I said before I shall maintain my stand on this position and as you will on yours, essentially rendering this debate a waste of time, while we could spend it other constructive activities.
Regards.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm not talking about figuring out if someone is a crackpot, I'm talking about someone who has already shown themselves to be a crackpot. We get plenty of people who post nonsense but end up just being ignorant. Most of these people prove willing to learn and are not crackpots.

 

[Evo]

Inasmuch ridicule starts as education ends we lose the chance to find what would have occurred in case that education had been pursued further. It may well have a negative result but the hope for a positive one is enough for me to pursue it.

We've been there, done that, and we learned that it's hopeless. We had "Theory Development" and "Independent Research" forums. What a waste of time and energy. There are forums that allow crackpots to post, you can certainly try to help them on those forums.

 

[AlephZero]

What is funny about ignorance I have never been able to comprehend.

IMO the essence of crackpottery is stupidity, not ignorance. Of course many of them are ignorant as well, but not all. The ones who got a mainstream science education before they lost the plot are usually more fun to watch (from a safe distance!).

 

[OmCheeto]

...
Nope, he wasn't but at that time he did his work he was called a charlatan.
...

I think there's a difference between being called a charlatan by, say, the Physics Forum Staff, and, hmm... the westboro baptist church?

I'm sure if Galileo had expected the spanish^* inquisition, he may have only shared his scientific revelations with peers.

hmmm... Did Galileo have any peers?

--------------------------
* Whatever... Nerd!

 

[strangerep]

What is funny about ignorance I have never been able to comprehend.

Indeed. I think this is akin to how some people get actual enjoyment from tormenting others, or playing practical jokes on someone whose temperament is not suited to being on the receiving end of such. I.e., it's a form of bullying.

 

[lisab]

I think there's a difference between being called a charlatan by, say, the Physics Forum Staff, and, hmm... the westboro baptist church?

I'm sure if Galileo had expected the spanish^*

no! NO ONE EXPECTS...

* Whatever... Nerd!

umm...nevermind

 

[OmCheeto]

:thumbs:

no! NO ONE EXPECTS...


umm...nevermind

²

 

[Enigman]

We've been there, done that, and we learned that it's hopeless. We had "Theory Development" and "Independent Research" forums. What a waste of time and energy. There are forums that allow crackpots to post, you can certainly try to help them on those forums.

PF is quite enough for me now, when I learn enough here to teach, well perhaps...

 

[OmCheeto]

PF is quite enough for me now, when I learn enough here to teach, well perhaps...

I think young Greg did forget one.

When the apparently, "smart one" talks, in the language of the Jabberwocky, beware...

 

[Ibix]

Inasmuch ridicule starts as education ends we lose the chance to find what would have occurred in case that education had been pursued further. It may well have a negative result but the hope for a positive one is enough for me to pursue it.

I used to agree with you, Enigman. Then I spent time arguing with them, trying to explain gently how their "theories" were inconsistent with experiment, other theories, or (in most cases) within themselves. While a very few of them listened, the vast majority simply declared me a soulless minion of orthodoxy and carried on none the wiser.

I agree that ridicule probably isn't immediately helpful, but what are your options when someone simply rejects reason and experiment while vigorously denying that they are doing either? I eventually went with "giving up", which is why I read and post here.

 

[Romulo Binuya]

I've seen some crackpot in different sites. There is a "physics professor" telling that the standard model is wrong because he says so. And an "experimental physicist" who hates CERN squandering money whereas the methods of her "team" is better. And some sockpuppets on the same IP address.

I don't know what to do with them, but for the meantime I don't interact with them reasoning that it would be equivalent to touching crap with my bare hand, on the other hand interaction with them might aggravate their condition.

 

[Bandersnatch]

IMO the essence of crackpottery is stupidity, not ignorance. Of course many of them are ignorant as well, but not all. The ones who got a mainstream science education before they lost the plot are usually more fun to watch (from a safe distance!).

Indeed. I think this is akin to how some people get actual enjoyment from tormenting others, or playing practical jokes on someone whose temperament is not suited to being on the receiving end of such. I.e., it's a form of bullying.

As far as I see the things from my ill-educated vantage point of my comfy armchair, it's neither ignorance nor stupidity that elicits or deserves ridicule, but the arrogance.

Ridiculing the ignorant is counterproductive to educating them, ridiculing the stupid is akin to laughing at the disabled because they can't run as fast as you. But when somebody is so full of himself so as to not only trust his own faculties over the collected effort of the rest of the world, but demand others to do the same, he needs to be slaped in the face.
With a fish, preferably, but a healthy dose of ridiciule would do just the same.
Whether it serves as a wake-up call, or just to prevent the spread of the infection, the world will be thus made a better place.


Mabe this is just me, but I find arrogance disruptive to the society, wherever it pops up. Arrogance breeds confidence, which might fool other people in believing you despite the near-perfect vacuum where the substance of your claims ought to be.
There's more people in the world than ever before, so either you learn to coexist and cooperate with your fellow humans, or dream of being the king of the world where it doesn't affect others.

 

[Akaisora]

As far as I see the things from my ill-educated vantage point of my comfy armchair, it's neither ignorance nor stupidity that elicits or deserves ridicule, but the arrogance.

Ridiculing the ignorant is counterproductive to educating them, ridiculing the stupid is akin to laughing at the disabled because they can't run as fast as you. But when somebody is so full of himself so as to not only trust his own faculties over the collected effort of the rest of the world, but demand others to do the same, he needs to be slaped in the face.
With a fish, preferably, but a healthy dose of ridiciule would do just the same.
Whether it serves as a wake-up call, or just to prevent the spread of the infection, the world will be thus made a better place.


Mabe this is just me, but I find arrogance disruptive to the society, wherever it pops up. Arrogance breeds confidence, which might fool other people in believing you despite the near-perfect vacuum where the substance of your claims ought to be.
There's more people in the world than ever before, so either you learn to coexist and cooperate with your fellow humans, or dream of being the king of the world where it doesn't affect others.

I agree. I think it's both arrogance and lack of purpose/higher goal. If the crackpot's main object was to learn and be productive, the baseless theories and ignorance would soon stop and the said individual will learn.

 

[HayleySarg]

I used to agree with you, Enigman. Then I spent time arguing with them, trying to explain gently how their "theories" were inconsistent with experiment, other theories, or (in most cases) within themselves. While a very few of them listened, the vast majority simply declared me a soulless minion of orthodoxy and carried on none the wiser.

I agree that ridicule probably isn't immediately helpful, but what are your options when someone simply rejects reason and experiment while vigorously denying that they are doing either? I eventually went with "giving up", which is why I read and post here.

Could it be less of an object of the material at hand, and more of something that stems from a lack of concrete ability to analyze?

I've always perceived crackpots as people with an inability to logically analyze things. They have no internal checkpoints by which they view the world. For example, when they ponder on a new idea, they don't put it through the same set of rigorous questions that I would (and I suspect, many of the other members here would).

You know, the typical questions: How is this possible? How does this fit in with accepted theory? What motivates or instigates this action? Is it mathematically sound? Does it withstand experiment (ie can it be repeated)? Does it withstand peer review?

Whenever I either think of a "new" idea, or come upon an idea I've not yet seen before that isn't "accepted as standard", I work through most of these in my head and do further research. If it doesn't seem plausible after that, it likely isn't.

Whereas with crackpots, there is a certain personal bias that blocks any true rigorous analysis. It's "my idea and therefore right" stands blatantly in the way.

 

[DennisN]

I used to agree with you, Enigman. Then I spent time arguing with them, trying to explain gently how their "theories" were inconsistent with experiment, other theories, or (in most cases) within themselves. While a very few of them listened, the vast majority simply declared me a soulless minion of orthodoxy and carried on none the wiser.

I have the same experience.

As far as I see the things from my ill-educated vantage point of my comfy armchair, it's neither ignorance nor stupidity that elicits or deserves ridicule, but the arrogance.

I think so too. It seems in some (many?) cases, ignorance and stupidity can lead to arrogance. And that shell is very hard - and I guess in some cases impossible - to break through.

Regarding the question of how to deal with it, I see education and humor as tools. I guess it's a matter of context; age, education, willingness to think and learn.

When I was very young, I remember I had an idea that the Moon and the Sun were the same object. In the day, the Sun was shining bright, in the night, it was just shining less bright. This is pretty cute, I think. Now I am older and better educated. If I would hold on to my prior belief, it would not be cute anymore, it would be ridiculous.

I also very much like this quote by Michael Shermer:

You want to have a mind open enough to accept radical new ideas, but not so open that your brains fall out. (from Baloney Detection Kit, (Dr. Michael Shermer)).

 

[Drakkith]

I've always perceived crackpots as people with an inability to logically analyze things. They have no internal checkpoints by which they view the world. For example, when they ponder on a new idea, they don't put it through the same set of rigorous questions that I would (and I suspect, many of the other members here would).

I'd agree except that many times they have a perfectly reasonable ability to logically analyze and are smart, intelligent people. Some have PHD's or other degrees that they've earned at regular colleges.

In my opinion, a crackpot is someone who believes that they are correct over the rest of the scientific community AND promotes their own belief over established theories.

 

[HayleySarg]

I'd agree except that many times they have a perfectly reasonable ability to logically analyze and are smart, intelligent people. Some have PHD's or other degrees that they've earned at regular colleges.

In my opinion, a crackpot is someone who believes that they are correct over the rest of the scientific community AND promotes their own belief over established theories.

Yes, in this case, it has got to be something about personal bias getting in the way.

Why and or how this becomes the case, is really beyond me. I was never instructed to believe that for any particular reason I was more likely to be "more right" than anyone else unless I could prove it. When I was a little girl, my father proudly told a story of disproving something his chemistry teacher kept going on about, and being very stern in the "The greatest thing about science is that the ego lays with the evidence, not with the presenter of the evidence"

Learning to separate yourself from your research is a must. Which is very difficult when you're truly invested and quite frankly, biased in the results.

 

[strangerep]

I agree with Bandersnatch's point about how it's ok to ridicule arrogance. The more physics I learn, the more embarrassment I feel when rememberling the arrogance of my youth.

[...] It seems in some (many?) cases, ignorance and stupidity can lead to arrogance. And that shell is very hard - and I guess in some cases impossible - to break through.

Yeah -- the Dunning-Kruger effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1]

Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. David Dunning and Justin Kruger of Cornell University conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others".[2]

 

[Enigman]

One who believes that they are correct over the rest of the scientific community AND promotes their own belief over established theories.

I am afraid I can't agree with that definition as taken absolutely at its face value it would put all the establishers of present theories in that category. A better definition would someone whose theories go against the established theory and the experimental evidence present to support the theory. Though your definition is certainly an indicator of a crank but does not prove it definitely.

I agree with Bandersnatch's point about how it's ok to ridicule arrogance.

The occupation of ridiculing IMO is an occupation of arrogance. Ridicule will be often (in my limited experience) would just aggravate the crank further and the crank will start looking at himself/herself as a martyr to the cause making ridicule even more counter-productive.

Yeah -- the Dunning-Kruger effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger

Yes, that is probably the case with some cranks but as Drakkith pointed out many of these are often highly educated personae with just as high claims with of course nothing to substantiate them with as far as experimental evidence is concerned. They are more fanatics than reasoners of science convinced at their own theories of the universe to the point that they refute the proof universe provides itself.

 

[Nugatory]

One who believes that they are correct over the rest of the scientific community AND promotes their own belief over established theories.

I am afraid I can't agree with that definition as taken absolutely at its face value it would put all the establishers of present theories in that category.

There are very few examples (Darwin and speciation might be one of them) and none that I can think of from after the scientific method was established in the 19th century of establishers of present theories who promoted their own belief "over established theories". Quantum mechanics and relativity, for example, are credible in large part because under the appropriate conditions they reduce to the previously accepted classical theories.

And its not as if Einstein ever had to seriously "promote" relativity over established theories. After a reasonable period of initial skepticism to digest what he was saying, the community embraced SR with enthusiasm appropriate for a solution to one of the great unsolved problems of the past half-century.

 

[Enigman]

No, most recent examples as you say did not need 'serious' promoting but if they weren't promoted at all we wouldn't even know about it. My main point was that many cranks propound theories that are in open contradiction to experimentally established facts and try to mould the facts to fit the theory. I interpreted promoting as trying to gain acceptance of the theory. Which anyone with a new theory would do.
However the lack of promoting theories has on few occasions hindered the progress. An example would be Chandrashekhar's theory and the ridicule and suppression it faced because of Eddington, had his theory been promoted then astrophysics would have had a considerable head-start.

Theories like string theory and Zz's example of induced fit vs. lock and key mechanicsm have also you will note needed a bit of promoting in face of a more generally accepted theory.
Regards.

 

[strangerep]

The occupation of ridiculing IMO is an occupation of arrogance.

Interesting point. Hadn't considered that.