Pictures of electron etc orbits

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of photographs depicting electron orbits in bubble chambers, focusing on the interpretation of these images, the physical processes involved, and the technical aspects of the photographic setup.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire whether the images are photographs and at what distance the "orbits" occurred from the lens.
  • One participant suggests that answering questions about distance and size is impossible without specific details about the bubble chamber and photographic apparatus.
  • Another participant asks for possible minimum and maximum values regarding the sizes depicted in the photo.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the white lines in the photographs, with some suggesting they represent clusters of bubbles that ionized and radiated light.
  • One participant clarifies that the white lines are actually spirals formed by electrons losing energy in a magnetic field, rather than traditional orbits.
  • Another participant questions the relationship between the light radiated by ionized atoms and the clusters of bubbles, seeking clarification on the photographic representation.
  • It is noted that the tiny bubbles reflect surrounding light, similar to bubbles in a carbonated drink, and are produced by the ionizing trail of electrons.
  • Concerns are raised about whether a lens is used in the photographic setup, with differing opinions on the necessity of a lens based on experimental details.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of the photographs and the technical details of the photographic setup. There is no consensus on the exact nature of the images or the use of lenses in the experiments.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the discussion is limited by the lack of specific construction details of the bubble chamber and the photographic apparatus, which affects the ability to determine distances and sizes accurately.

luckis11
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Pictures of "electron etc orbits"

http://www.sciencephoto.com/images/download_lo_res.html?id=651380013

Are they photographs and the "orbits" happened at some distance form the lens? Then, how much is that distance?

What are the actual sizes of these shapings? I.e. how many milimetres is the length and the diametre of each (line on photo)->(cylinder out there that happened)?
 
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luckis11 said:
Are they photographs and the "orbits" happened at some distance form the lens?

Yes.

Then, how much is that distance?

What are the actual sizes of these shapings? I.e. how many milimetres is the length and the diametre of each (line on photo)->(cylinder out there that happened)?

It's impossible to answer these questions without knowing the construction details of this specific bubble chamber and its associated photographic apparatus.
 


OK, impossible, but what could they be the minimum and maximum values regarding this photo?
 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_chamber

So, what is actually photographed as a white line (which is supposed to be the orbit of an electron), is a cluster of bubbles, which radiated light because the atoms of the bubbles got ionised? (It doesn't make much sense what I just said, but am asking for the exact description).
 
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luckis11 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_chamber

So, what is actually photographed as a white line (which is supposed to be the orbit of an electron), is a cluster of bubbles, which radiated light because the atoms of the bubbles got ionised? (It doesn't make much sense what I just said, but am asking for the exact description).

That's pretty close. The tight circles are actually spirals, if you look at them closely. They are not 'orbits', and the scale is much larger than even a classical Newtonian electron orbits, if that's what you suspect. The circularity comes from their motion within an intense magnetic field, perpedicular to their motion. The spiral comes from their losing energy to the fluid. They may also be losing energy by light-radiation losses: they are giving off radiation because they are curving. So they spiral inward. They no longer have the speed to travel in a wider arc, the magnetism is constant, so they go in tighter and tighter arcs. The spirals are beautifully rounded because the electron is losing energy average-wise very consistently from point to point.

They are not orbiting anything. They are just getting tired and running out of gas.
 


That's not what I asked. I asked what what was photographed as white line. Light which was radiated by ionised atoms? Then what do the clusters of bubbles have to do with that?
 


luckis11 said:
That's not what I asked. I asked what what was photographed as white line. Light which was radiated by ionised atoms? Then what do the clusters of bubbles have to do with that?

No. not light radiated from ionized atoms. The tiny bubbles reflect light from the surrounding light. They are little different from the lines of bubbles coming up from the bottom of a glass of 7-up, except they go in a spiral direction, and are produced by the ionizing trail of the electrons, going the way I described previously.

The distance from the lens won't tell you anything: it could be one metre, or 10, depending on whether a simple lens, or tele-micrographic setup is used. The latter would produce the least image distortion. As for the exact size of everything, you would have to email the researchers.
 


Are you sure they use a lens? The don't mention anything about any lens in the detailed experimental setups that I have read.
 


luckis11 said:
Are you sure they use a lens? The don't mention anything about any lens in the detailed experimental setups that I have read.

I'm as sure as you are.

The post started with 'the lens' as a given.
 

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