Positive Mass in the Lagrangian from Landau

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of positive mass in the context of the action integral as presented in Landau and Lifshitz's "Mechanics." Participants explore the implications of mass being negative and the conditions under which the action integral achieves a minimum, particularly in relation to the trajectory of a particle.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the reasoning behind the assertion that mass cannot be negative, seeking clarification on the argument presented in Landau regarding the action integral not having a minimum if mass is negative.
  • Another participant suggests that if mass is negative, the action integral could become arbitrarily negative due to the positive nature of velocity squared, indicating a lack of a minimum.
  • A mathematical approach is presented, calculating the second variation of the action and showing that the second derivative is positive only if mass is greater than zero, implying that positive mass is necessary for the action to be minimized.
  • Concerns are raised about the requirement for the action to be a minimum, as Landau notes that it only needs to be stationary, leading to questions about the reasoning behind this requirement for positive mass.
  • A participant discusses exceptions to the principle of least action, citing specific scenarios where the action does not yield a minimum, which they argue may indicate circular reasoning in Landau's argument.
  • Another participant mentions that they found no better explanations in other texts, highlighting a proof from Whittaker that requires prior knowledge of kinetic energy, which complicates the understanding of why mass should be positive.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement regarding the necessity of positive mass and the conditions for the action integral. Multiple competing views remain, particularly concerning the interpretation of the action's behavior and the implications of mass being negative.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion hinges on the definitions of action and mass, and the assumptions made in deriving the conditions for the action integral. There are unresolved mathematical steps and dependencies on specific forms of kinetic energy that are acknowledged but not fully explored.

Oppie
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Hello,

I'm sure most of you are already familiar with the book "Mechanics" by Landau and Lifshitz. There's a section that I do not understand.

In section 4 towards the end they mentions that "It is easy to see that the mass of the particle cannot be negative." They then give the argument that the action integral will not have a minimum if the mass is negative as can be seen if the particle leaves point 1 rapidly and approaches point 2 rapidly.

Can someone please elaborate on this?
 
Thanks for the bump.

Unfortunately, I am still at a loss.

Is it as simple as seeing that v^2 is always positive and therefore if m<0 then if v at the initial and terminal points are large then you cannot have a minimum for the action integral since it can be arbitrarily negative?

Thanks.
 
Let's calculate the 2nd variation of the action
$$A[x]=\int \mathrm{d}t \frac{m}{2} \dot{x}^2.$$
To that end we define
$$A[x,\eta]=A[x+\eta \delta x]=\int \mathrm{d} t \frac{m}{2} (\dot{x}+\eta \delta \dot{x})^2$$
and take the 1st and 2nd derivative wrt. ##\eta##:
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} \eta} A[x,\eta]=\int \mathrm{d} t m (\dot{x}+\eta \delta \dot{x})\delta \dot{x},$$
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}^2}{\mathrm{d} \eta^2} A[x,\eta]=\int \mathrm{d} t m \eta \delta \dot{x}^2,$$
Now you want for ##\eta=0## the action to be stationary, i.e., that ##x(t)## is the trajectory of the particle according to the Hamilton principle of least action. That means
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}}{\mathrm{d} \eta} A[x,\eta]|_{\eta=0}=\int \mathrm{d} t m \dot{x} \delta \dot{x} = -\int \mathrm{d} t m \ddot{x} \delta x \stackrel{!}{=}0 \; \Rightarrow \; m \ddot{x}=0.$$
Now the second derivative is always positive if and only if ##m>0## and thus the stationary point is indeed a minimum if and only if ##m>0##. Thus ##m## should be positive.
 
Thank you. I understand it now mathematically, if that makes sense.

My question now is, why require to action to be minimum? Landau and Lifshitz themselves note in a footnote that the action only needs to be stationary but now it seems that it has to be minimum for the mass to be positive.
 
Oppie said:
Thank you. I understand it now mathematically, if that makes sense.

My question now is, why require to action to be minimum? Landau and Lifshitz themselves note in a footnote that the action only needs to be stationary but now it seems that it has to be minimum for the mass to be positive.

Although it is not very important, when equations of motions are derived from the Hamilton principle (often incorrectly called principle of least action), most often the action calculated for the actual trajectory beginning in ##t_1,q_1## and ending in ##t_2,q_2## is a local minimum - all nearby trajectories obeying that constraint give higher action. There are exceptions, like trajectory of a billiard ball inside elliptic pool table, when going from one focus to another in given time through encounter with the wall; due to elliptic shape of the wall, all points of the wall lead the ball to the focus in the same time, so there is no single trajectory of least action.

In Landau, I think it is a circular reasoning, they claim mass needs to be positive based on the frequency of common situation that action has a minimum, and elsewhere they will say action has to be minimum for infinitesimally long trajectories because that gives the right equations for positive mass particle.
 
Thanks for the response. I tried looking at other books, etc. to see if I can find a better explanation on this, unfortunately there isn't, at least at all the places I searched.

Also, to add, Whittaker in his Analytical Dynamics gives a proof that the action is a minimum but this requires previous knowledge of the form of the kinetic energy. Anyway, I thought it was interesting and which in turn drove me nuts trying to reason out that the mass should be positive without knowing the form of the kinetic energy beforehand.
 

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