POTUS Election 2016- a Fresh Start

[jim hardy]

So she's responsible, whether she knew what she was doing or not. So not only did she not know what she was doing (*wink*), but she didn't listen to people who did know what she was doing and knew she shouldn't. That's a really bad/dangerous combination of incompetence and arrogance for a leader to posses.

Rickover said "If nobody is responsible then everybody is irresponsible."

Whoever is at apex of state department holds responsibility for what goes on in state department.
What Russ describes is pure hubris.

 

[Astronuc]

You need to go a step further: it shouldn't have been done at all. Or, from the opposite direction: she had a "system" that was set up properly: It was her DOS email. She just never used it.

Yes, absolutely, Clinton as SOS should have been using the state.gov email system for 'official' business. That she did not for specious reasons is troubling.

I've read a number of criticisms about Clinton's sense of entitlement. Despite her rhetoric about public service, her behavior seems to indicate that she feels entitled and that the system should accommodate her.

I would have preferred to have a choice of Kasich vs Sanders, rather than the current selection.

 

[russ_watters]

I would have preferred to have a choice of Kasich vs Sanders, rather than the current selection.

My mother is writing-in Kasich.

 

[jim hardy]

I've read a number of criticisms about Clinton's sense of entitlement. Despite her rhetoric about public service, her behavior seems to indicate that she feels entitled and that the system should accommodate her.

read about her childhood.

 

[StevieTNZ]

I wonder why some Americans don't trust the electoral system...
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americ...ice-after-fearing-first-vote-would-be-changed

Rote told Iowa Public Radio that she cast her first ballot for Donald Trump but feared it would be changed to a vote for Hillary Clinton.

"I wasn't planning on doing it twice - it was spur-of-the-moment," Rote told the radio station. "The polls are rigged."

 

[Evo]

Friday, James Comey, the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, acting independently of Attorney General Loretta Lynch, sent a letter to Congress saying that the F.B.I. had discovered e-mails that were potentially relevant to the investigation of Hillary Clinton’s private server. Coming less than two weeks before the Presidential election, Comey’s decision to make public new evidence that may raise additional legal questions about Clinton was contrary to the views of the Attorney General, according to a well-informed Administration official. Lynch expressed her preference that Comey follow the department’s longstanding practice of not commenting on ongoing investigations, and not taking any action that could influence the outcome of an election, but he said that he felt compelled to do otherwise.

Comey’s decision is a striking break with the policies of the Department of Justice, according to current and former federal legal officials. Comey, who is a Republican appointee of President Obama, has a reputation for integrity and independence, but his latest action is stirring an extraordinary level of concern among legal authorities, who see it as potentially affecting the outcome of the Presidential and congressional elections.

“You don’t do this,” one former senior Justice Department official exclaimed. “It’s aberrational. It violates decades of practice.” The reason, according to the former official, who asked not to be identified because of ongoing cases involving the department, “is because it impugns the integrity and reputation of the candidate, even though there’s no finding by a court, or in this instance even an indictment.”

Matthew Miller, a Democrat who served as the public-affairs director at the Justice Department under Holder, recalled that, in one case, the department waited until after an election to send out subpoenas. “They didn’t want to influence the election—even though the subpoenas weren’t public,” he said. “People may think that the public needs to have this information before voting, but the thing is the public doesn’t really get the information. What it gets is an impression that may be false, because they have no way to evaluate it. The public always assumes when it hears that the F.B.I. is investigating that there must be something amiss. But there may be nothing here at all. That’s why you don’t do this.”

“Comey is an outstanding law-enforcement officer,” Miller said, “but he mistakenly thinks that the rules don’t apply to him. But there are a host of reasons for these rules.”

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...oretta-lynch-and-justice-department-tradition

 

[Student100]

"Credit"? I don't know how such a word even applies here. Anyway, I've never heard before that a state department email address can't be accessed from home nor that that was a reason why she used a personal account. Do you have a source for that?

If the State Department is anything like the DoD, to access email from home you only need your CAC, a government issued computer, and to then set up web-mail (This of course, only applies to unclass systems). It would be hard to imagine that the state department is that different, but I don't really know.

I'm saying that you are giving the woman way too much credit. She wanted a way to work at home so that important issues didn't wait until she was in the office and she was happy to hear that was possible. Gullible? Maybe. Too willing to believe it was ok? Most likely. Intentionally trying to get away with something illegal? Highly doubtful. We're going to have to agree to disagree on this, I don't believe that she was that IT savvy that she fully understood when she was told that they could set up a secure server that it wouldn't be "ok". Maybe not 100% Kosher, but "ok". Politicians do things that aren't Kosher all of the time, she probably felt justified in doing it because she saw no wrong in getting important issues addressed faster (that probably meant she could stay home and not have to go to the office in the middle of the night, I'm not saying it wasn't part laziness). Her fault is not admitting she screwed up when it was first explained to her.

You might be giving her too little credit Evo.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of either "she was using a private system to send classified information because she didn't want to be bothered by the burdens of being in the SCIF" and the "She was naive and gullible" camps. I don't believe she intentionally meant to send classified information (that doesn't make it okay) on her private server, but I do believe she purposefully meant to skirt federal recording keeping laws.

It's really the only thing that makes sense. If it was merely a convenience thing, she would have used a email hosted by a third party, like yahoo or google (like CP or her predecessors who used third party emails, far more plausibly for convenience). Using a private server primary for her work correspondence ensured only she had the finally say in what, if anything, was turned over for recording keeping or FOIA requests. That probably seemed like something very appealing, especially with another presidential run on the horizon.

To address the other part of the quote,

As far as it being "ok", the state department OIG says there's no evidence she ever sought approval, and that is certainly not "ok."

By Secretary Clinton’s tenure, the Department’s guidance was considerably more detailed and more sophisticated. Beginning in late 2005 and continuing through 2011, the Department revised the FAM and issued various memoranda specifically discussing the obligation to use Department systems in most circumstances and identifying the risks of not doing so. Secretary Clinton’s cybersecurity practices accordingly must be evaluated in light of these more comprehensive directives.

Secretary Clinton used mobile devices to conduct official business using the personal email account on her private server extensively, as illustrated by the 55,000 pages of material making up the approximately 30,000 emails she provided to the Department in December 2014. Throughout Secretary Clinton’s tenure, the FAM stated that normal day-to-day operations should be conducted on an authorized AIS, yet OIG found no evidence that the Secretary requested or obtained guidance or approval to conduct official business via a personal email account on her private server. According to the current CIO and Assistant Secretary for Diplomatic Security, Secretary Clinton had an obligation to discuss using her personal email account to conduct official business with their offices, who in turn would have attempted to provide her with approved and secured means that met her business needs. However, according to these officials, DS and IRM did not—and would not—approve her exclusive reliance on a personal email account to conduct Department business, because of the restrictions in the FAM and the security risks in doing so.

https://oig.state.gov/system/files/esp-16-03.pdf

 

[Astronuc]

Was it legal for the FBI to expand the Weiner email search to target Hillary Clinton’s emails?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ail-search-to-target-hillary-clintons-emails/

From what I can patch together, the FBI was investigating former congressman Anthony Weiner for potential crimes involving sexting with an underage girl. As part of the investigation, the FBI seized Weiner’s laptop to search it for evidence of the sexting crimes. I would guess, although I haven’t yet been able to confirm, that the FBI obtained a warrant to search Weiner’s computer. The Fourth Amendment would generally require a warrant to search a suspect’s personal computer unless there are special circumstances such as consent that haven’t been mentioned in press reports.

The case connects to Clinton because the laptop happens to have been shared by Weiner and his now-estranged wife, Huma Abedin, who is an important adviser to Hillary Clinton. In the course of searching Weiner’s laptop, the FBI came across emails in Abedin’s email account that appeared to the agents to be relevant to the Clinton email server case. According to news reports, the FBI now is planning to get a warrant to search the laptop for emails related to the Clinton server case. They haven’t obtained that warrant yet, however, so the Weiner computer has not yet been subject to a comprehensive search.

I'd say it is legal. It appears that the FBI are going by the book. They were investigating one case (Weiner's apparent sending illicit message to a teenager) and noticed possible evidence (new emails that were apparently previously undisclosed by Clinton and her staff). The FBI having noticed the emails will obtain a warrant. That seems reasonable - probably cause.

The current matter is Clinton's own doing, which is why she should have conducted State related business on a state.gov server. Mixing personal and business matters (emails) is never a sound practice. I keep my work related communication separate from my personal, except where personal communication may relate to work. When I was hired, I understood that my work emails are essentially the property of the organization and will be archived , and my emails can be scrutinized by IT/security.

 

[Evo]

Was it legal for the FBI to expand the Weiner email search to target Hillary Clinton’s emails?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ail-search-to-target-hillary-clintons-emails/
I'd say it is legal. It appears that the FBI are going by the book.

The question is not if it's legal, it's announcing it before it's been done or even without anything being found. It's going against the DOJ. That's the issue.

 

[jim hardy]

it's announcing it before it's been done or even without anything being found.

wow what would i do in Comey's shoes ? Loose lips sink ships.

Speaking as a plain civilian i'd rather hear about it from Comey than Alex Jones.
That removes the 'pinch of malice' implied if it came out via a FBI leak.

Curiously, Trump predicted last summer :

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/10/29/trump-called-it-months-ago-anthony-weiner-threatens-national-security.html

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump saw this coming from a mile away, fingering Weiner as a potential national security threat all the way back in August of 2015. “It came out that Huma Abedin knows all about Hillary’s private illegal emails,” Trump wrote on Twitter. “Huma’s PR husband, Anthony Weiner, will tell the world.”

 

[Astronuc]

The question is not if it's legal, it's announcing it before it's been done or even without anything being found. It's going against the DOJ. That's the issue.

Legality is one question, the timing of the announcement is another issue. I'm not clear on the publicity of the announcement. I thought Comey informed Congress about the new discovery, which is appropriate. I'm sure how the new information was released to the press.

I think it is relevant, because it addresses whether or not Clinton is trustworthy, and it would have been nice to know during the primaries. It might have influenced some voters then.

Another issue is her effectiveness as CinC. Based on her interaction with the families of those killed in Benghazi, I wonder about here suitability or effectiveness as CinC who has to address families of service personnel killed while serving. Perhaps she will rise to the occasion - at least I hope she would.

I have seen Clinton up close when she addressed a local Chamber of Commerce gathering around 2007. She did express a warmth and concern for folks who wanted to talk with her after the formal program, and she did find time to speak with folks before rushing off to the next engagement. That's what I'd like to see going forward.

 

[Astronuc]

Curiously, Trump predicted last summer

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...thony-weiner-threatens-national-security.html

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump saw this coming from a mile away, fingering Weiner as a potential national security threat all the way back in August of 2015. “It came out that Huma Abedin knows all about Hillary’s private illegal emails,” Trump wrote on Twitter. “Huma’s PR husband, Anthony Weiner, will tell the world.”

Bear in mind that those are Trumps words, and not the words of the DOJ or FBI.

The content of the emails on Weiner's computer is not clear. If they are personal emails or otherwise emails not related to State department business, that's no big deal, and they are certainly not illegal. Private emails between Clinton and her social network are not subject to federal oversight. Emails related to her work as SoS are government business, and if such emails are present on Weiner's computer, then that is a big deal.

One other concern I have. I hear a lot of noise about 'innocent until proven guilty,' which some folks seem reluctant to extend to Clinton. That appears to me as one of numerous hypocrisies shared by Trump and his surrogates, and others who support him. I've heard some folks describe Trump as honest, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. As we've seen at Politico's Truthometer, Clinton appears to be mostly truthful, while Trump is mostly untruthful.

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/hillary-clinton/
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/

http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mike-pence/ - mostly in the middle
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/tim-kaine/ - slightly to the truthful side of the middle.

Of course, that's not strictly scientific, and the bias/objectivity is uncertain.

 

[Evo]

Legality is one question, the timing of the announcement is another issue. I'm not clear on the publicity of the announcement. I thought Comey informed Congress about the new discovery, which is appropriate. I'm sure how the new information was released to the press.

I had already posted earlier about how he had contacted his fellow Republicans only against the DOJ already in an earlier post, perhaps you missed it. Here it is. No Democrats, Not even Clinton was notified, they learned about it from the news. Dirty politics?

Friday, James Comey, the director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, acting independently of Attorney General Loretta Lynch, sent a letter to Congress saying that the F.B.I. had discovered e-mails that were potentially relevant to the investigation of Hillary Clinton’s private server. Coming less than two weeks before the Presidential election, Comey’s decision to make public new evidence that may raise additional legal questions about Clinton was contrary to the views of the Attorney General, according to a well-informed Administration official. Lynch expressed her preference that Comey follow the department’s longstanding practice of not commenting on ongoing investigations, and not taking any action that could influence the outcome of an election, but he said that he felt compelled to do otherwise.

Comey’s decision is a striking break with the policies of the Department of Justice, according to current and former federal legal officials. Comey, who is a Republican appointee of President Obama, has a reputation for integrity and independence, but his latest action is stirring an extraordinary level of concern among legal authorities, who see it as potentially affecting the outcome of the Presidential and congressional elections.

“You don’t do this,” one former senior Justice Department official exclaimed. “It’s aberrational. It violates decades of practice.” The reason, according to the former official, who asked not to be identified because of ongoing cases involving the department, “is because it impugns the integrity and reputation of the candidate, even though there’s no finding by a court, or in this instance even an indictment.”

Matthew Miller, a Democrat who served as the public-affairs director at the Justice Department under Holder, recalled that, in one case, the department waited until after an election to send out subpoenas. “They didn’t want to influence the election—even though the subpoenas weren’t public,” he said. “People may think that the public needs to have this information before voting, but the thing is the public doesn’t really get the information. What it gets is an impression that may be false, because they have no way to evaluate it. The public always assumes when it hears that the F.B.I. is investigating that there must be something amiss. But there may be nothing here at all. That’s why you don’t do this.”

“Comey is an outstanding law-enforcement officer,” Miller said, “but he mistakenly thinks that the rules don’t apply to him. But there are a host of reasons for these rules.”

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...oretta-lynch-and-justice-department-tradition

I think it is relevant, because it addresses whether or not Clinton is trustworthy, and it would have been nice to know during the primaries. It might have influenced some voters then.

It's not relevant because the device doesn't belong to Clinton, the FBI didn't ask for the device in regards to Clinton, and we don't know if there is anything on it that is relevant to Clinton.

 

[Astronuc]

I had already posted earlier about how he had contacted his fellow Republicans only against the DOJ already in an earlier post,perhaps you missed it. Here it is. No Democrats, Not even Clinton was notified, they learned about it from the news. Dirty politics?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-wrongly-says-fbi-director-sent-letter-abou/

Comey sent a letter to Congress Oct. 28 saying the FBI may have found new emails relevant to its probe into Clinton’s private email server that she used while secretary of state. The FBI plans to review these new emails to see if they contain classified information.

Interestingly,

Clinton was incorrect to say that the letter "only" went to Republican members of the House of Representatives. Democrat members received the letter, too.

The letter was addressed at the top to the chairmen of various congressional committees, who are all currently Republican because the party controls both the Senate and the House. But the second page of the letter indicates that Comey also circulated the letter to ranking Democrats on those committees, as well.

Comey's actions seem appropriate. He notified the Committee Chairpersons, who happen to be republican, but he also notified ranking democrats.

 

[Evo]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-wrongly-says-fbi-director-sent-letter-abou/

Interestingly, Comey's actions seem appropriate. He notified the Committee Chairpersons, who happen to be republican, but he also notified ranking democrats.

That wasn't apparent yesterday, you are correct, I see that has just come out. Aparently she found out through the news after her plane landed. So, that still leaves Comey with going against the DOJ, his actions are still inappropriate.

@Astronuc do you realize that if Clinton isn't elected, Trump will become President? Is that what you want? Do you think Trump is more qualified and a better person for President than Clinton? I'm just curious. Clinton is far from perfect, but when it comes to running the country, she is by far the only one of the two that I would allow in the Oval office. Because this isn't about who you like, it's about who can run the country.

I heard today that he has decided not to release his income taxes at all. What is he hiding? That really concerns me.

 

[russ_watters]

[edit] deleted/nevermind -- was responding to another regurgitated Hillary lie.

 

[russ_watters]

@Astronuc do you realize that if Clinton isn't elected, Trump will become President? Is that what you want? Do you think Trump is more qualified and a better person for President than Clinton? I'm just curious. Clinton is far from perfect, but when it comes to running the country, she is by far the only one of the two that I would allow in the Oval office. Because this isn't about who you like, it's about who can run the country.

Evo, you do understand that it is possible to not like either Trump or Hillary and that it is possible to vote for Hillary even while being open/honest with yourself about all the bad things she's done, right? I don't think it is helpful to pretend Hillary is something she isn't just to get people (or convince yourself its ok?) to vote for her. Regardless of whom one votes for, in my opinion it is best to make the decision with eyes completely open.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

The Hatch Act, as amended and as it applies to the FBI among other agencies, prohibits "use of offical authority to influence or interfere with elections".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatch_Act_of_1939

I understand Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid has filed a complaint re FBI Director James Comey with the DOJ citing this law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ken-the-law-by-disclosing-new-clinton-emails/

EDIT: Correction: Reid sent a letter. The complaint was filed by another party.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/30/o...ils-did-the-fbi-director-abuse-his-power.html

 

[Evo]

Evo, you do understand that it is possible to not like either Trump or Hillary and that it is possible to vote for Hillary even while being open/honest with yourself about all the bad things she's done, right? I don't think it is helpful to pretend Hillary is something she isn't just to get people (or convince yourself its ok?) to vote for her. Regardless of whom one votes for, in my opinion it is best to make the decision with eyes completely open.

I completely agree and I thought that's what I said, I don't approve of some, or even many of the things Hillary's done, but if it comes to Trump or Hillary as president, I have to go with Hillary. Nothing says she can't be impeached later or charges pressed later, but at least we keep Trump out of office.

I'm just afraid of people not voting for her and not realizing that means electing Trump as president.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I completely agree and I thought that's what I said, I don't approve of some, or even many of the things Hillary's done, but if it comes to Trump or Hilary as president, I have to go with Hillary. Nothing says she can't be impeached later or charges pressed later, but at least we keep Trump out of office.

I'm just afraid of people not voting for her and not realizing that means electing Trump as president.

US democracy has survived some less than mediocre presidents: Tyler, Fillmore, Buchanin, Andrew Johnson, Grant, Hayes, B. Harrison, Taft, Harding and Hoover by general consensus. I'll leave history to judge others. We survived them all. Hillary may mess up, but I think we will still survive as a democracy. I don't feel that way about Trump.

 

[TurtleMeister]

I completely agree and I thought that's what I said, I don't approve of some, or even many of the things Hillary's done, but if it comes to Trump or Hillary as president, I have to go with Hillary. Nothing says she can't be impeached later or charges pressed later, but at least we keep Trump out of office.

I came across this FiveThirdyEight page that shows how women will keep Trump out of office.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-women-are-defeating-donald-trump/
Those maps are quite an eye opener.

 

[Evo]

US democracy has survived some less than mediocre presidents: Tyler, Fillmore, Buchanin, Andrew Johnson, Grant, Hayes, B. Harrison, Taft, Harding and Hoover by general consensus. I'll leave history to judge others. We survived them all. Hillary may mess up, but I think we will still survive as a democracy. I don't feel that way about Trump.

I know, this is the first time in my life that I am truly scared. I've never been scared before. Maybe they weren't my first choice, but I wasn't worried that they might not have both oars in the water.

 

[Astronuc]

@Astronuc do you realize that if Clinton isn't elected, Trump will become President? Is that what you want? Do you think Trump is more qualified and a better person for President than Clinton? I'm just curious. Clinton is far from perfect, but when it comes to running the country, she is by far the only one of the two that I would allow in the Oval office. Because this isn't about who you like, it's about who can run the country.

If I only had a choice between Clinton and Trump, I'd choose Clinton, who is certainly more capable than Trump. Trump is simply inappropriate. In my opinion, Trump would be undermine national and global security; Clinton while not perfect is less of a risk.

However, I'm disappointed in the fact that most of the nation has to choose between the two of them. Sanders was a little to far out for my taste, and of all the candidates this cycle, I would prefer Kasich. I currently reside in a region that is predominantly republican, but the state has a democratic majority heavily weighted in major urban areas. I expect that Clinton will win the state. Based on that, I wrote in a candidate, because I want to encourage independents to run for office as a third alternative to either of the two major parties.

What I would like to see is McMullin win Utah and Kasich to win Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan, which is enough to deprive Clinton or Trump of 270 of 538 votes.

 

[Evo]

If I only had a choice between Clinton and Trump, I'd choose Clinton, who is certainly more capable than Trump. Trump is simply inappropriate.

However, I'm disappointed in the fact that most of the nation has to choose between the two of them. Sanders was a little to far out for my taste, and of all the candidates this cycle, I would prefer Kasich. I currently reside in a region that is predominantly republican, but the state has a democratic majority heavily weighted in urban major urban areas. I expect that Clinton will win the state. Based on that, I wrote in a candidate, because I want to encourage independents to run for office as a third alternative to either of the two major parties.

What I would like to see is McMullin win Utah and Kasich to win Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan, which is enough to deprive Clinton or Trump of 270 of 538 votes.

Voting for an independent is voting for Trump. It is meaningless, you threw away your vote , worse, you threw it to Trump. My dad used to vote for independents. You know George Wallace? He was an independant. He was shot, an assasination attempt that failed. That's how much history pays attention to independants. Of course he was a racist, biggot, can't say what else I think of him.

Is Donald Trump A Modern-Day George Wallace?

Wallace allies and family see parallels today in Trump.

"It's just a replay," Charlie Snider, one of Wallace's most trusted political aides, told NPR. "We're looking at a modern-day George Wallace."

Snider is a Trump supporter. Wallace's daughter, a Democrat, hears it, too, but in a different way.

"Trump and my father say out loud what people are thinking but don't have the courage to say," Peggy Wallace Kennedy told NPR. Wallace Kennedy was 18 when she was on the campaign trail with her father in 1968. She believes Trump is exploiting voters' worst instincts, the way her late father once did.

"They both were able to adopt the notion that fear and hate are the two greatest motivators of voters that feel alienated from government," she said.

http://www.npr.org/2016/04/22/475172438/donald-trump-and-george-wallace-riding-the-rage

 

[Astronuc]

It is meaningless, you threw away your vote , worse, you threw it to Trump.

I'm making a statement with my vote. I know many republicans who won't vote for Trump, and some can't vote for Clinton, but I expect vote for Clinton will probably be twice those for Trump.

I think the nation needs to stop with 'the lesser of two evils' approach and encourage more capable folks with integrity. In the long term, the nation will note fare well on the current trajectory.

Something to consider beyond Nov 8 -
Natasha Trethewey and Eboo Patel — How to Live Beyond This Election
http://www.onbeing.org/program/natasha-trethewey-and-eboo-patel-how-to-live-beyond-this-election/9010

 

[Evo]

I'm making a statement with my vote. I know many republicans who won't vote for Trump, and some can't vote for Clinton, but I expect vote for Clinton will probably be twice those for Trump.

I think the nation needs to stop with the lesser of two evils and encourage more capable folks with integrity. In the long term, the nation will note fare well on the current trajectory.

Independents are quickly forgotten, no one notices.

Scary though, how Trump seems to be mirroring Wallace.

 

[Astronuc]

Independents are quickly forgotten, no one notices.

I notice independents, and I wrote my self in for county commissioner as an independent. Got to start somewhere.

Actually, Sanders is an independent from Vermont, although he does caucus with the democrats.

I voted for an independent for Senator, and a mix of democrats and republicans for state and local offices.

 

[BillTre]

US democracy has survived some less than mediocre presidents: Tyler, Fillmore, Buchanin, Andrew Johnson, Grant, Hayes, B. Harrison, Taft, Harding and Hoover by general consensus.

Unfortunately, Buchanin helped get the Civil War started, the most costly in our history>

What I would like to see is McMullin win Utah and Kasich to win Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan, which is enough to deprive Clinton or Trump of 270 of 538 votes.

You might find this interesting, a scenario of how McMullin might win the presidency. It's something like this: McMulliin wins Utah, neither Trump nor Clinton get enough electoral votes to become president. Not a likely outcome, but possible. Determining the next President is then determined by a vote in the House of Representatives. They can only vote for people who have won electoral votes. Enough of them (Republican House) don't like Trump that McMullin gets picked.

 

[Student100]

Voting for an independent is voting for Trump. It is meaningless, you threw away your vote , worse, you threw it to Trump. My dad used to vote for independents. You know George Wallace? He was an independant. He was shot, an assasination attempt that failed. That's how much history pays attention to independants. Of course he was a racist, biggot, can't say what else I think of him.

It isn't voting for Trump, it neither helps nor hinders Hillary (or Trump when people try to make the same argument for him).

 

[Evo]

Unfortunately, Buchanin helped get the Civil War started, the most costly in our history>You might find this interesting, a scenario of how McMullin might win the presidency. It's something like this: McMulliin wins Utah, neither Trump nor Clinton get enough electoral votes to become president. Not a likely outcome, but possible. Determining the next President is then determined by a vote in the House of Representatives. They can only vote for people who have won electoral votes. Enough of them (Republican House) don't like Trump that McMullin gets picked.

He's against women's and gay right's, let's hope not.

 

[jim hardy]

Hillary may mess up, but I think we will still survive as a democracy.

That's what i said to my Dad about Reagan.
I might say it now too if we didn't have three supreme court justices born in the 1930's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Justices_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States

I've said this before, I'm voting for originalists to the Supreme Court.

 

[OmCheeto]

Just finished watching Frontline's: The Choice 2016 [2 hours long!]

Interesting historical background on Trump & Clinton.
I have to admit, the only thing I knew about Trump, before now, was that he had bad hair.

There's also a transcript.

 

[Borg]

Just finished watching Frontline's: The Choice 2016 [2 hours long!]

Interesting historical background on Trump & Clinton.
I have to admit, the only thing I knew about Trump, before now, was that he had bad hair.

There's also a transcript.

I watched that a few weeks ago. It was interesting to see how they became the way that they are today.

 

[russ_watters]

Voting for an independent is voting for Trump.

A popular slogan, but mathematically false. When a person votes for Trump instead of Hillary or Hillary instead of Trump, it is a swing of *2* votes between them. When one votes for a 3rd party it is a swing of *1* vote between the two leaders. In my case, for example, I've never voted for anyone but a Republican for President, so you could fairly say my vote "should" be Trump's. So my vote for an independent or write-in is a 1 vote reduction for Trump without the corresponding expected 1 vote gain for Hillary.

A person staying home on election day does the same thing, but I don't like it because there is no visibility of who chose to stay home for principle vs who chose to stay home for apathy.

It is meaningless...
[separate post]
Independents are quickly forgotten, no one notices.

I think the last sentence in my first paragraph above is the perfect statement for me. If I vote for Hillary it sends a bad message because it tells her, in the only way I meaningly have to tell her anything, that I support her. And I don't. People certainly remember Ross Perot and the fact that Clinton never earned a majority of the popular vote. I think it is important for Clinton's mandate once elected (and I expect she will be) that she not receive a majority either. That also would give me hope that she'd be likely to only be a one-termer.

I also expect Micky Mouse to have a strong showing this year, and I think it would be fitting for one cartoon character to take votes from another. But he's a little too anti-semitic for my taste.

 

[Bystander]

I also expect Micky Mouse to have a strong showing this year,

... and I ... abstained this year on POTUS ... first abstention since '68 ... I really do think WH should be left vacant this go around.