Problem with Einstein notation and Levi-Civita symbol

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of Einstein notation in conjunction with the Levi-Civita symbol and Kronecker delta to express a specific summation involving permutations of indices. Participants explore the challenges of adhering to the conventions of Einstein notation while attempting to simplify the expression.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a method to express a sum involving permutations using the Levi-Civita and Kronecker symbols, aiming to eliminate certain terms.
  • Another participant questions the validity of using repeated indices in Einstein notation, suggesting that it may not align with formal mathematical conventions.
  • A third participant cites sources indicating that using more than two repeated indices in Einstein notation is considered incorrect, yet notes a lack of explanation for this rule.
  • Participants discuss the possibility of reverting to explicit summation notation to avoid ambiguity and ensure clarity in calculations.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about achieving the desired summation solely with Einstein notation, emphasizing the need for proper summation signs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

There is no consensus on the use of repeated indices in Einstein notation, with some participants defending its use in practical contexts while others argue against it based on formal mathematical principles. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the possibility of expressing the summation solely with the specified symbols in accordance with Einstein notation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of using Einstein notation with multiple repeated indices, pointing out that it may lead to ambiguities or undefined operations. The discussion also reflects differing perspectives between physics and mathematics regarding notation conventions.

mnb96
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Hello,

I consider the permutations \sigma_i, where i\in \{1,\ldots,n\}, of the following kind:
\sigma_i is obtained by choosing the i-th element from (1,..,n) and by shifting it to the first position; for instance \sigma_3 = (3,1,2,\ldots,n). The parity of \sigma_i is clearly (-1)^{i-1}.

For n=3, I would like to express the following sum based on \sigma_i-permutations in a compact form, using the Levi-Civita \varepsilon and Kronecker \delta symbols:

a_{123} - a_{213} + a_{312}

The first index is 1,2,3 so that would be easy to obtain with a repeated index, but I find the remaining two indices difficult to pull out by manipulations with the \varepsilon and \delta symbols.

Any help?
 
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Well, first observe that
εijkaijk = a123-a213+a312-a132+a231-a321.

You're asking how we could construct a similarly simple formula which kills the last three terms.

One not-very-pretty way I thought of is that you want to keep all the permutations ijk such that j<k. So you could kill the permutations with j>k by writing

j+1,kj+2,kijkaijk

The kroneckers will kill the terms where k<j, giving you what you want.
 
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Thanks Jolb,

killing those three terms is indeed what I am trying to achieve with Einstein notation.
I see only one little problem with your suggestion: the indices j,k in your formula are repeated three times, which is not in agreement with Einstein notation, am I right?
 
Well, my knowledge of Einstein notation comes from physics, and I'd be surprised if any physicist had an issue with the fact that the j's and k's appear three times. It should be pretty clear what that means--since i, j, and k are repeated, then just sum over all possible sets of {i,j,k}.

Maybe mathematicians have some rigorous way of doing the summation convention that I don't know about, so it's possible that for certain purposes, the expression may be problematic. But I can't think of an example where you would run into a problem using what I wrote... but please let me know what sort of possible problems arise if what I wrote qualifies as an "abuse" of notation.
 
I found a couple of old threads in this forum, and more discussions around the net, all saying that it is incorrect to use Einstein notation with more than 2 repeated indices.
I found the same piece of information from a book I have.

Though all these sources agreed about the fact that it is "incorrect", unfortunately no one explained *why*.
 
Well if you're actually trying to do a calculation rather than some abstract formal math, then you could always just replace what I have written with the actual sum you want a123-a213+a312. If you do some manipulations with the fudgy notation I suggested, you could always go back and plug in the actual sum to check if anything's gone haywire.

Moreover, you could always just change to normal notation and put the big sigma out front, explicitly stating that you want a sum over {i,j,k}--then you're definitely safe, even for formal math.
 
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mnb96 said:
Though all these sources agreed about the fact that it is "incorrect", unfortunately no one explained *why*.
Contraction is a mathematical operation; it makes no sense to contract one object or one index with two (or more) other objects or indices simultaneously; such an action would not be well-defined. This is why in Einstein notation one never repeats dummy indices more than twice.
 
Thanks WannabeNewton!

Do you know if it is actually possible at all to express that simple summation using only Levi-Civita's and Kronocker's symbols and in accordance with Einstein notation?
 
I can't really see how you would do it solely using Einstein notation. You would, for example, need proper summation signs to indicate a sum with ##j < k## as jolb said above.
 

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