Proof for Lorentz Transformation of Momentum: Step Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of a specific step in the proof for the Lorentz transformation of momentum, focusing on the algebraic manipulation involved in transforming velocities. Participants explore various approaches to understand and simplify the derivation process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant requests clarification on a specific step in the Lorentz transformation proof, indicating confusion over the derivation.
  • Another participant asks for more details about the confusion to provide better assistance.
  • Several participants suggest substituting the Lorentz transformation for velocity into the equation but express difficulty in deriving the expected result.
  • There are mentions of the complexity of the algebra involved, with references to multiple gamma factors and the need to manage various velocity components.
  • Some participants propose alternative methods, such as using properties of 4-vectors or transformations of time coordinates, to potentially simplify the derivation.
  • One participant acknowledges the challenge of the algebra and notes a realization about the need for careful observation of the final expression rather than blind manipulation.
  • Another participant confirms that they successfully worked through the algebra after considering the necessary transformations for all velocity components.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the complexity of the algebra involved in the derivation, but multiple approaches and methods are discussed without a consensus on a single preferred method.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of considering all components of velocity in the derivation, indicating that missing these could lead to confusion. The discussion also reflects varying levels of comfort with the mathematical concepts involved.

little neutrino
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Hi. In the attached proof for Lorentz transformation for momentum http://www.colorado.edu/physics/phys2170/phys2170_sp07/downloads/lorentz_transformation_E_p.pdf, there is this step that I don't understand:

1/√1-u'2/c2 = γ(1-vux/c2)/√1-u2/c2

Can someone explain how they derived this? Thanks! :)
 
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Which part of this step don't you understand? Can you show exactly where you get stuck?
 
I tried substituting the Lorentz transformation for u'
ux' = (ux-v)/(1-uxv/c2)
into the LHS
and simplifying it from there, but I couldn't derive the expression on the RHS :(
 
little neutrino said:
I tried substituting the Lorentz transformation for u'
ux' = (ux-v)/(1-uxv/c2)
into the LHS
and simplifying it from there, but I couldn't derive the expression on the RHS :(

Yes, it's quite difficult algebra to derive this identity. You have three gamma factors and a velocity transformation formula to manage. You just have to keep working at it.

There is a quicker way using the properties of 4-vectors and the proper time of the particle if you are comfortable with those?

Actually, I've just noticed a very quick way simply using the transformation of the time coordinates ##t## and ##t'##.

Let me know if you are interested in the quick way!
 
Last edited:
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little neutrino said:
I tried substituting the Lorentz transformation for u'
ux' = (ux-v)/(1-uxv/c2)
into the LHS
and simplifying it from there, but I couldn't derive the expression on the RHS :(

Maybe this is a trivial point, but you have to use the Lorentz transformed expressions for ##u'_y## and ##u'_z## as well as ##u'_x##. Start with ##u'^2=u'^2_x+u'^2_y+u'^2_z## in the LHS. As PeroK says, there's a lot of messy algebra to work through, but it should work out.

PeroK said:
Let me know if you are interested in the quick way!

Well, I'm certainly interested if OP isn't. :biggrin:
 
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The relationship between the proper time of the particle and the two coordinate times is:
##\frac{dt}{d\tau} = \gamma, \frac{dt'}{d\tau} = \gamma '## (1)

Differentiate the transformation for time wrt proper time:

##t' = \gamma_V(t - Vx/c^2)##

##\frac{dt'}{d\tau} = \gamma_V(\gamma - V \gamma v_x/c^2) = \gamma_V\gamma (1- Vv_x/c^2) ##

Then, using (1) we have:

##\gamma ' = \gamma_V\gamma (1- Vv_x/c^2)##

In fact, you can derive the energy-momentum transformation much more easily by differentiating the components of position wrt proper time of the particle.
 
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Wow, that is pretty.
 
With rapidities (i.e. trigonometry), \theta'=\theta-\theta_V,
\begin{align*}\cosh\theta&#039;<br /> &amp;=\cosh(\theta-\theta_V)\\<br /> &amp;=\cosh\theta\cosh\theta_V-\sinh\theta\sinh\theta_V\\<br /> &amp;=\cosh\theta\cosh\theta_V(1-\tanh\theta\tanh\theta_V)\\<br /> \gamma_{u&#039;}<br /> &amp;=\gamma_{u}\gamma_{V}(1-uV)<br /> \end{align*}
 
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PeroK said:
Yes, it's quite difficult algebra to derive this identity. You have three gamma factors and a velocity transformation formula to manage. You just have to keep working at it.

There is a quicker way using the properties of 4-vectors and the proper time of the particle if you are comfortable with those?

Actually, I've just noticed a very quick way simply using the transformation of the time coordinates ##t## and ##t'##.

Let me know if you are interested in the quick way!

Sflr I was caught up with some stuff this week :/ I just figured out the algebraic manipulation after substitution of u' ; I realized that I had to observe the final expression more closely instead of blindly manipulating the algebra. Thanks so much for your help! :)
 
  • #10
TeethWhitener said:
Maybe this is a trivial point, but you have to use the Lorentz transformed expressions for ##u'_y## and ##u'_z## as well as ##u'_x##. Start with ##u'^2=u'^2_x+u'^2_y+u'^2_z## in the LHS. As PeroK says, there's a lot of messy algebra to work through, but it should work out.
Well, I'm certainly interested if OP isn't. :biggrin:
Yup, I finally worked through the algebra. Thanks! :)
 
  • #11
PeroK said:
The relationship between the proper time of the particle and the two coordinate times is:
##\frac{dt}{d\tau} = \gamma, \frac{dt'}{d\tau} = \gamma '## (1)

Differentiate the transformation for time wrt proper time:

##t' = \gamma_V(t - Vx/c^2)##

##\frac{dt'}{d\tau} = \gamma_V(\gamma - V \gamma v_x/c^2) = \gamma_V\gamma (1- Vv_x/c^2) ##

Then, using (1) we have:

##\gamma ' = \gamma_V\gamma (1- Vv_x/c^2)##

In fact, you can derive the energy-momentum transformation much more easily by differentiating the components of position wrt proper time of the particle.
Woah that's sweet XD Thanks for the alternative solution!
 

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