Propane driven Generator system

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The discussion revolves around the design of a propane-driven generator system, utilizing a 500-gallon propane tank heated by solar energy to drive an air motor. The main concerns include the efficiency of the thermodynamic cycle, the pressure and temperature management of propane, and the safe handling of the gas. Participants highlight the need for adequate solar collector surface area to match the energy requirements of the system, as well as the importance of returning vaporized propane to liquid form for re-injection into the tank. Safety considerations regarding potential leaks and the choice of propane as a working fluid are also emphasized. Overall, the design aims to create a functional solar heat engine while addressing technical and safety challenges.
  • #31
ken5285 said:
Thank you very much everyone here for the advice so far.

Was this a program that you had used to generate this graph? If, so is it possible for me to get my hands on it?

On the graph, what is the bottom axis and what properties is being shown on the right? I am guessing it will be temperature in Kelvins and the entropy shown on this graph.

The program was REFPROP version 8.0 from NIST. They sell it on their website for $200 bucks (or at least it was when I bought it).

The horizontal axis is the Enthalpy as indicated. The values on the right are the specific volume and the entropy. Save the plot to your computer and zoom in. You'll be able to see the units then.

CS
 
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  • #32
What basis equations does this program use? Does it model the real gas behavior throughout all regions? And If I happen to acquire the program would i be able to ploit for temperatures even higher than 600K, probably to at least 1000K?

Thank you again.
 
  • #33
ken5285 said:
What basis equations does this program use? Does it model the real gas behavior throughout all regions? And If I happen to acquire the program would i be able to ploit for temperatures even higher than 600K, probably to at least 1000K?

Thank you again.

The program uses various equations of state. Here is the program information available for propane (with limits):

Propane - CH3CH2CH3

CAS#: 74-98-6
Molar mass: 44.096 kg/kmol
Triple point temperature: 85.53 K
Normal boiling point temperature: 231.04 K
Critical point temperature: 369.89 K
Critical point pressure: 4.2512 MPa
Critical point density: 220.48 kg/m³
Gas phase dipole at NBP: 0.084 debye
Acentric factor: 0.1521

Equation of State
Equation type: Helmholtz energy
Limits: 85.53 K to 625.0 K, 1000.0 MPa, 908.37 kg/m³
Lemmon, E.W., McLinden, M.O., Wagner, W. to be submitted to J. Phys. Chem. Ref. Data, 2007.

Below 350 K, the uncertainties in density are 0.01% in the liquid phase and 0.03% in the vapor phase (including saturated states for both phases). The liquid phase value also applies at temperatures greater than 350 K (to about 500 K) at pressures greater than 10 MPa. In the extended critical region, the uncertainties increase to 0.1% in density, except very near the critical point where the uncertainties in density increase rapidly as the critical point is approached. However, in this same region, the uncertainty in pressure calculated from density and temperature is 0.04%, even at the critical point.

The uncertainties in the speed of sound are 0.01% in the vapor phase at pressures up to 1 MPa, 0.03% in the liquid phase between 260 and 420 K and 0.1% in the liquid phase at temperatures below 260 K. The uncertainty in vapor pressure is 0.02% above 180 K, 0.1% between 120 and 180 K, and increases steadily below 120 K. Below 115 K, vapor pressures are less than 1 Pa and uncertainty values might be as low as 3% at the triple point. Uncertainties in heat capacities are 0.5% in the liquid phase, 0.2% in the vapor phase, and higher in the supercritical region.

Viscosity
Limits: 85.47 K to 600.0 K, 100.0 MPa, 881.91 kg/m³
Vogel, E., Kuechenmeister, C., Bich, E., and Laesecke, A., "Reference Correlation of the Viscosity of Propane," J. Phys. Chem. Ref. Data, 27(5):947-970, 1998.

The uncertainty in viscosity varies from 0.4% in the dilute gas between room temperature and 600 K, to about 2.5% from 100 to 475 K up to about 30 MPa, and to about 4% outside this range.

Thermal Conductivity
Limits: 85.47 K to 600.0 K, 100.0 MPa, 881.91 kg/m³
Marsh, K., Perkins, R., and Ramires, M.L.V., "Measurement and Correlation of the Thermal Conductivity of Propane from 86 to 600 K at Pressures to 70 MPa," J. Chem. Eng. Data, 47(4):932-940, 2002.

Uncertainty in thermal conductivity is 3%, except in the critical region and dilute gas which have an uncertainty of 5%.

Surface Tension
Limits: 85.47 K to 369.85 K
Baidakov, V.G. and Sulla, I.I. "Surface tension of propane and isobutane at near-critical temperatures," Russian Journal of Physical Chemistry, 59:551-554, 1985.

Melting Line
Limits: 85.48 K to 2000.0 K
Reeves, L.E., Scott, G.J., Babb, S.E., Jr. "Melting curves of pressure-transmitting fluids," J. Chem. Phys., 40(12):3662-6, 1964.

Coefficients have been modified (2004)

Hope this helps.

CS
 
  • #34
Thank you so much for the information that you provided. I really appreciate it. I will work with this information that you provided here. If I have any further questions I would try to contact you again.
 
  • #35
ken5285 said:
Thank you so much for the information that you provided. I really appreciate it. I will work with this information that you provided here. If I have any further questions I would try to contact you again.

You're welcome.

Let us know how your project turns out.

Good luck.

CS
 
  • #37
After recent events I was surprised at how many views this thread has generated. Another thing that stood out to me is how little information is disclosed about overall design.

The recent comments about flywheels and their efficiency, produced a thought in my mind, and I would like see what others might think.

First let me repeat why propane is the liquid of choice.
1. Availability
2. Can be combusted as an additional heat source.
3. It's ability to absorb heat from the atmosphere (even through the night) if system conditions are correct.
4. Non-conductive, non-combustionable, in a closed system.
5. Liquid form can serve as both coolant, and lubericant for electrical and moving parts.
6. Elimination of internal ice buildup using certain phase change devices (as opposed to water steam).

Now for the question in mind, considering that the objective is to heat the liquid propane and produce pressure in the system.

Would a flywheel completely submerged in liquid propane serve it's full purpose and at the same time all resistance to the liquid friction, and bearing drag, even motor losses are absorbed by the liquid, thus producing a 100% use of energy at that point?

Ron
 
  • #38
RonL said:
First let me repeat why propane is the liquid of choice.
4. Non-conductive, non-combustionable, in a closed system.

Gasoline is also non-flammable in a "closed system." That doesn't detract from the fact that it is very hazardous, especially if a small leak occurs. Propane is even more dangerous if a small leak occurs because it is gaseous at STP.

RonL said:
5. Liquid form can serve as [a] lubericant for electrical and moving parts.

I don't think this is necessarily true, unless you have some data on lubricating moving parts using liquid propane. just because its a liquid doesn't mean its a good lubricant.

RonL said:
Would a flywheel completely submerged in liquid propane serve it's full purpose and at the same time all resistance to the liquid friction, and bearing drag, even motor losses are absorbed by the liquid, thus producing a 100% use of energy at that point?

What exactly are you asking here? Are you trying to heat the propane with a submerged flywheel now? What's wrong with just heating it with the sun?
 
  • #39
I would never think of lubricating something with liquid propane. The system would have to be at high pressure and the small amount of heat you would pull out would undoubtedly vaporize it. It's vapor pressure at 100°F is 172 psig. It's boiling point at atmospheric pressure is -44°F. You would seriously be looking at a cooling system comperable to what is used with liquid hydrogen in rocket motors. Not to mention what Mech already pointed out that its lubricity is probably non existent. You would never get a lubrication system like that to work. What you would end up with is a system that is ripe for a fire.
 
  • #40
This might be one supporting link, and although it talks of refining contaminated oil that is normally considered waste, I think it supports the idea of propane liquid being a carrier of a certain amount of pure base oil that will serve as a lubricant to any moving parts such as bearings, and air motor vanes. Filters would remove any contaminates produced from wear in the moving parts.

http://www.interlineresources.com/Used%20Oil%20Re-Refining?showall=1

Having exposure to high pressure hydraulic systems that turn and slide, I understand the concerne for leaks, but all moving parts can be contained within the pressure tank, and any thermal transfer parts (that might need to be outside the tank) will be no different than a typical AC system.

The point of the flywheel question, was all energy normally considered waste is in fact used in the very act of contributing heat to the system.
Not sure a flywheel is needed, it was just a thought about efficiency.

Ron
 
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