Prove this identity? Am I allow to do it like this?

  • Thread starter Thread starter flyingpig
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Identity
Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around proving identities related to vector calculus, specifically the divergence of vector fields and the application of partial derivatives. Participants are examining the validity of different approaches to these proofs.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are discussing the original poster's method of using divergence properties and questioning whether it constitutes a proof. There is a focus on the necessity of using partial derivatives for proper derivation. Some participants suggest that the original poster may be misapplying vector operator properties and should adhere to definitions involving partial derivatives.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights into the correct application of vector calculus concepts. There is a recognition of the need to clarify the use of vector operators and their behavior, but no consensus has been reached on the original poster's approach.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating the complexities of vector calculus identities and the implications of assuming vector operators behave like traditional vectors. There is mention of specific homework constraints regarding the use of partial derivatives in proofs.

flyingpig
Messages
2,574
Reaction score
1

Homework Statement



[PLAIN]http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5384/unledkb.jpg



The Attempt at a Solution



For 21. I simply did

[tex]div(\mathbf{F} + \mathbf{G}) = \vec{\nabla} \cdot (\mathbf{F} + \mathbf{G}) = \vec{\nabla} \cdot \mathbf{F} + \vec{\nabla} \cdot \mathbf{G} = div(\mathbf{F}) + div(\mathbf{G})[/tex]

My book proves it using partial derivatives. But I don't think I am wrong.

For 23. I don't understand what my book did with partial derivatives

[PLAIN]http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3527/unlednx.jpg

I tried doing

[tex]div(f\mathbf{F})= \vec{\nabla} \cdot f\mathbf{F} = f(\vec{\nabla} \cdot \mathbf{F}) = fdiv(\mathbf{F})[/tex]

I couldn't get the other dot product.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
You aren't actually proving the relations using your method, just either restating them, or using the relation to prove the relation. Your book is using partials because, at this stage, it's what you will have to do to prove the relation.

What your book did for the second one was actually show the calculations by using the components of the vector field and just multiplying out the steps. Once the derivations were done, it regrouped terms appropriately. You will need to follow suit.
 
div F is a synonym for ∇·F and both are shorthand notations for a commonly used set of partial differentials.
And although ∇·F looks like a regular inner product, it is not!
It is a derivative operator, defined by the partial differentials as shown in your given solution.

This is also the reason that you cannot simply say that ∇·(fF) = f∇·F.
That is because f is a function dependent on x, y, and z, and the derivative needs to be taken (product rule).

To proof the equations, the derivative needs to be written out in the x, y, and z coordinates, and afterward it can be turned back into the shorthand notation.
 
I don't understand, aren't I just trying to prove the vector properties?
 
Yes, the important word being prove. But, you're assuming the vector operators behave like vectors .
 
SammyS said:
Yes, the important word being prove. But, you're assuming the vector operators behave like vectors .

Aren't they?
 
Judging by the example you showed, you should not be assuming that the vector operators behave like vectors. Use the definitions of divergence, curl, and gradient as defined by partial derivatives and vector components.

The fact that the vector operators behave like vectors, is one result you can get after doing the proofs in this exercise.
 
Oh then was it wrong that I added the arrow on top of the gradient operator?
 
flyingpig said:
Oh then was it wrong that I added the arrow on top of the gradient operator?

No, you were right to add the arrow on top of the gradient operator.
That is, in al lot of respects the gradient operator looks and behaves like a vector does.
So it is good practice to put an arrow on top to stress this fact.

However, there are a couple of cases where the gradient operator behaves differently and you need to know when that is exactly, and how it behaves then.
 
  • #10
flyingpig said:
...
My book proves it using partial derivatives. But I don't think I am wrong.

For 23. Isn't this #25 ? I don't understand what my book did with partial derivatives

[PLAIN]http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3527/unlednx.jpg
...
What did the book do with partial derivatives that you don't understand?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K