Push Forward on a Product Manifold.

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    Manifold Product Push
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the push forward of functions defined on the product of two smooth manifolds, specifically focusing on the tangent bundles of these manifolds. Participants explore the implications of local coordinates and the properties of tangent spaces, as well as the challenges of defining push forwards without local coordinates.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that for two smooth manifolds M and P, the tangent space of their product is isomorphic to the product of their tangent spaces, T(M×P) ≅ TM×TP, and discusses local coordinates.
  • Another participant mentions a result regarding the tangent space of a product manifold, asserting that T_{(m,n)}(M×N) is isomorphic to the direct sum of the tangent spaces at points m and n.
  • A participant acknowledges the previous result and indicates its implicit use in their earlier example.
  • One participant suggests exploring properties of duality and the relationship between tangent spaces and dual spaces to find the desired result regarding push forwards.
  • Another participant expresses uncertainty about the discussion's direction, emphasizing their interest in the push forward and the challenges posed by the absence of local coordinates.
  • A specific example involving the left translation in a Lie group is presented, with a request to define the push forward of a function on the product of the group with itself.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus, as there are multiple competing views on how to approach the push forward without local coordinates, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific decomposition of the push forward.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations related to the absence of local coordinates and the complexity of defining push forwards in a general context, which may depend on specific properties of the manifolds involved.

andresB
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Some words before the question.
For two smooth manifolds M and P It is true that
T(M\times P)\simeq TM\times TP
If I have local coordinates \lambda on M and q on P then (\lambda, q) are local coordinates on M\times P (right?). This means that in these local coordinates the tanget vectors are of the form a^{i}\frac{\partial}{\partial\lambda^{i}}+b^{i}\frac{\partial}{\partial q^{i}}

Now, I can compute push forwards in local coordinates. For example, for a function
f(\lambda, q)\rightarrow(\lambda,Q(q,\lambda))
Then
f^{*}\left(\frac{\partial}{\partial\lambda}\right)=\frac{\partial}{\partial\lambda}+\frac{\partial Q}{\partial\lambda}\frac{\partial}{\partial q}
where I just had to do the matrix product of the Jacobian to the column vector (1,0)^{T}.

Actual Question.

For a function f:\, TM\times TP\longrightarrow TM\times TP
and without using local coordinates what can be said about the Push forward f^{*}:\, TM\times TP\longrightarrow TM\times TP ?.

Particularly interested if the push forward can be descomposed into something in TM product something in TP.
 
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There is a result that for m in M , n in N, ## T_{(m,n)} (M \times N) = T_m M (+) T_n N ## , where ##(+)## is the direct sum of (tangent) vectors. Where by '=' I mean isomorphic.
 
Thanks for replying.

Yes, I'm aware of the result, I actually implicitly used it in the example above.
 
I am not sure of what you are looking for, but you can also use properties of duality, since ##TM:= \cup (T_p M)^{*}##
Then ## T(M\times N) = (T_{(m,n)} M \times N )^{*}=T_m^{*}M (+) T_n^{*}N = TM \times TN ##.

Then a finite direct sum is a direct product .

You may want to play with these properties of duals , duals of products, etc. to look for the
result you want.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure to understand what you mean. Either way, What I'm intersted is in the push forward.

If I have local coordinates, like in the example in the OP, for a given a function of M\times P to itself I can compute the push forward of that function. If I do not have coordinates then I have no idea what to do.

For example, let G be a lie group (I'm interested in SU(n)). The left translation is given by L_{a}b=ab. The push forward of the left translation aplied to a tangent vector at the identity, E\in T_{e}G , would give a tangent vector at the new group element (L_{a})_{*}E\in T_{a}G.

Now, for (g,g\text{´)}\in G\times G I would like to define L_{(1,h)}(g,g\text{´)}=(g,hg), and find the push forward of this function as L_{(1,h)*}(E\oplus0)= Something \oplus Something .
 

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