- 14,787
- 7,432
That's true only if you do NOT include quantum jumps (somehow related to measurements). But when you introduce a jump into QFT, then it is no longer a local process.fzero said:Processes in QFT are described perfectly locally.
That's true only if you do NOT include quantum jumps (somehow related to measurements). But when you introduce a jump into QFT, then it is no longer a local process.fzero said:Processes in QFT are described perfectly locally.
Demystifier said:The equations are correct, but what do you mean by "mostly"?
This claim is a total mystery. What does it mean that decay (jump) happens in mathematical terms? I guess it means that some quantity has a discontinuous dependence on time, but WHAT quantity? Is it c_1(t) and c_2(t)? Or something else?
Interaction of WHAT with WHAT? If you say of "photon" with "electron", then what are "photon" and "electron" in mathematical terms? Is electron the state c_1(t)|1>+ c_2(t)|2>? Or something else?
If you say that the electron is the state c_1(t)|1>+ c_2(t)|2>, then your correct expression above for c_1(t) and c_2(t) is obtained by assuming that interaction occurs for ALL times between t_1 and t_2, so it cannot be compatible with your claim that "interaction occurs instantaneously at the fixed time [itex]t_\gamma[/itex]".
It's not only possible, decoherence is a strong evidence that this actually IS so.Jano L. said:But if it is possible that droplets of rain drumming on the roof are in fact falling down continuously, isn't it also possible that the discontinuous clicks of detectors are just an artifact of their inability to resolve these fast phenomena in time?
If it is possible that change of conformation of some photosensitive molecule is 0.1 ps (really fast!), isn't it possible that change of state of hydrogen atom takes some non-zero time too? Even more, when it radiates harmonic waves with fs periods?
Isn't it possible that seemingly discontinuous change of the appropriate wave function is just a simple enlightenment of our knowledge when we look at the real state of things?
You meanfzero said:I was clear that the interaction is between the photon and the electron, as can be seen from the operator I wrote down.
Such a conclusion is based on classical view of nature, but is not the only logically possible conclusion. Another logical possibility is that the superposition c_1(t)|1> + c_2(t)|2> collapsed into |1> or |2> not in the past, but in the very moment of measurement. Actually, this latter possibility is the standard view of quantum theory.fzero said:Again, when we measure the state 2 at some time we can only conclude that the decay occurred some time in the past.
You again fail to distinguish interaction used to calculate the S-matrix (which you really use in your calculations) from the interaction involved in the measurement process (which particle physicists usually don't take into account, but can be described by the fast-but-continuous process of decoherence, as I repeat over and over again).fzero said:From the mechanics of QFT this occurs from a local operator, at a specific time (the interaction only occurs once in first order perturbation theory.)
Again, one should specify which of the two interactions one is talking about.fzero said:There is no basis to conclude that the interaction is occurring at ALL times. Each possible event is a contribution to the sum, the event is not occurring continuously.
But still you have the instantaneous transition from a mixed state to a pure one. In Bohmian mechanics, this is of course not a problem. But how would you resolve this in the Copenhagen interpretation?Demystifier said:It's not only possible, decoherence is a strong evidence that this actually IS so.
Therefore, since you obviously like to think in continuous terms, you should definitely learn more about decoherence which will further reinforce your continuous view of nature.
Yes, that's a good point. One who still insists on Copenhagen interpretation may say that collapse happens at the level of quantum state of the brain, or something like that. I'm certainly not one of those who find such a hypothesis appealing, but frankly it is difficult to refute such a hypothesis experimentally.kith said:But still you have the instantaneous transition from a mixed state to a pure one. In Bohmian mechanics, this is of course not a problem. But how would you resolve this in the Copenhagen interpretation?
Decoherence explains that too, because it calculates the decoherence time explicitly, which turns out to be a very very short time (e.g. 10^(-22) seconds or so, depending on details of the case considered). Clearly, such a short decoherence time can be approximated by an instantaneous "jump".Jano L. said:Still, it is interesting that so many old famous calculations were partially successful with jumps without any comment on how they happen.
Yes, that's precisely what decoherence explains. More precisely, decoherence predicts that quantum system will end up in an eigenstate of the total Hamiltonian of measured system coupled to its environment.Jano L. said:Is there any reason known in decoherence theory, why the environment should force the atoms into certain preferred discrete states, like those assumed by Einstein?
granpa said:the atoms jumps from one quantum state to another but it does so gradually.
there is a finite time during which it is in a superposition of both states.
I agree with you. Like in the Ensemble interpretation, the wave function is an abstract idea rather than having any physical meaning besides telling you what an ensemble of particles (governed by this wave f-n) will do.But statistics is not dynamics; it is determined by dynamics, as Einstein pointed out.
You are mixing up two different things.Jano L. said:Demystifier,
I think in spectroscopy the decoherence will have to work a bit slower. Decay rate of 10^{-22} s for an atom would imply linewidth 10^22 Hz, which is absurdly large.
For the hydrogen line 1s-2p, characteristic time of decay of radiative oscillations is 10^-9 s, which implies the atom has to be described by superposed wave function at least for that long.
Even if it does, it is impossible to confirm it experimentally. So what evidence can you present to support that claim?Jano L. said:Gas just radiates its lines, no matter what observer of apparatus does.
Even if it does, it is impossible to confirm it experimentally.
Well, different interpretations of QM (none of which is falsified) suggest different answers.Jano L. said:Do you think that atoms and light exist, or that only wave function exists?
There is no reason to distinguish between cases 1 and 2, since the fundamental physics is the same.
The way that I would think of the process is as before. If at time t1 we measure an H-atom in the state 2p and at time t2 we find it in the 1s state, we know that the decay happened at some time in between and it was instantaneous.
This is very very deeply wrong. The best counterexample is the quantum Zeno effect, due to which a frequent observation of decay may significantly slow down the decay process, or even completely stop. I think THIS is the crucial thing to concentrate on. See e.g. the literature on decoherence I have already mentioned in one of the previous posts.Jano L. said:But the length of this second process (of measuring and "realizing" whether the atom has decayed or survived in its initial state), seems irrelevant for the actual physical process going on with the atom.
Quantum Zeno effect is not only a reason, but a proof that detector may influence decay a lot.Jano L. said:Also, there is no reason to think that it is influenced by the presence of the detector. Individual atoms of U-238 should always decay with the same mean rate, whether (passively) measured/observed or not.
Before this brain-process there is a much more important process caused by the measuring apparatus (or more precisely, the first thing that interacts strongly with the observed object) that determines how the observed object will behave.Jano L. said:2) The second process is the change of our knowledge on the state of _one_ particular radioactive atom (decayed or not decayed) when trapped inside of a detector.
This second process also takes some time t', mainly due to the time our brain takes to process the readout from the apparatus, say, 1 millisecond or so.
This is very very deeply wrong. The best counterexample is the quantum Zeno effect, due to which a frequent observation of decay may significantly slow down the decay process, or even completely stop. I think THIS is the crucial thing to concentrate on. See e.g. the literature on decoherence I have already mentioned in one of the previous posts.
In short, the behavior of quantum systems depends very much on the measurement you perform, which is probably the main conceptual difference between quantum and classical mechanics and the source of most (if not all) quantum weirdness.
But as a Bohmian, don't you view the contextuality of QM as nothing special or weird, just a consequence of the fact that measurement, like any other interaction, can have an effect on a system? Isn't that equally true of classical mechanics?Demystifier said:In short, the behavior of quantum systems depends very much on the measurement you perform, which is probably the main conceptual difference between quantum and classical mechanics and the source of most (if not all) quantum weirdness.
Of course, it is natural to adopt that interpretation in which weird things do not longer look weird. But I wanted to present the known facts about QM which do not depend on interpretation. Part of the reason why people are not interested in foundations and interpretations of QM is because they are not aware how QM looks weird without better understanding of foundations and interpretations. That's why I want to increase the awareness of that weirdness.lugita15 said:But as a Bohmian, don't you view the contextuality of QM as nothing special or weird, just a consequence of the fact that measurement, like any other interaction, can have an effect on a system? Isn't that equally true of classical mechanics?
That is true. But the right question is: Can we perform a measurement of atom WITHOUT strongly influencing it? The answer is that we cannot, except in a special case when the system is already in an eigenstate of the observable we want to measure.Jano L. said:In case the measurement perturbs atoms significantly, I agree that the process of measurement has strong influence on the behaviour of atoms.
Of course it hasn't, but that is because passive measurements of microscopic isolated systems DO NOT EXIST (except in the the special case I mentioned in the sentence above).Jano L. said:As far as I know, no passive observation/measurement has been reported in which the decay rate was altered.
It is APPROXIMATELY the same, and there is a good reason why is that so. This is because the probability of decay as a function of time is well approximated by the EXPONENTIAL lawJano L. said:Temperature, chemical status of the atoms does not matter, the decay rate is always the same.