Question about finding the force using vector projections

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving a 200-pound cart on a 30-degree inclined ramp, focusing on calculating the force required to prevent the cart from rolling down. Participants explore different methods of calculating this force, including vector projections and trigonometric relationships, while addressing unit conversions and vector equivalence.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a method using vector projections to find the force required to keep the cart from rolling, concluding it to be 100 pounds.
  • Another participant questions the use of pounds as a unit of force, noting that force is typically expressed in Newtons in the MKS system.
  • Some participants clarify that force can be expressed in different units depending on the system, including pounds in the English system.
  • There is a mention of an alternative method to calculate the force using trigonometric functions, specifically 200×sin(30°) for the force along the ramp and 200×cos(30°) for the perpendicular force.
  • One participant discusses the geometric relationship between the forces acting on the cart, suggesting that they form the legs of a right triangle.
  • A question is raised about the equivalence of two vectors, w1 and AC, with a focus on their magnitudes and directions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate units for force and the methods for calculating the required force. There is no consensus on a single method or unit, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the equivalence of the vectors w1 and AC.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not fully resolved the assumptions regarding vector equivalence and the implications of using different unit systems for force. The discussion includes various mathematical steps that are not universally agreed upon.

tokki1510
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In my pre-calculus textbook, the problem states:

A 200-pound cart sits on a ramp inclined at 30 degrees. What force is required to keep the cart from rolling down the ramp?

The gravitational force can be represented by the vector F=0i-200j

In order to find the force we need to project vector F onto a unit vector in the direction of the ramp, so we use

v = cos(30°)i+(sin30°)j

After calculating the projection of F onto v, we get -100(cos(30°),(sin30°)). Taking the magnitude of this, we get that it takes a force of 100 pounds to keep the cart from rolling down the hill.

So I have a couple of questions about this.

First, why can we express force in pounds? Someone told me we can only express force in Newtons.

Second, I've seen others solve it this way:

The force required to keep the cart from rolling is 200×sin(30°)
And when they solve for the force perpendicular to the hill it is 200×cos(30°)

Why is it possible to calculate it this way as well?
 
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tokki1510 said:
In my pre-calculus textbook, the problem states:

A 200-pound cart sits on a ramp inclined at 30 degrees. What force is required to keep the cart from rolling down the ramp?

The gravitational force can be represented by the vector F=0i-200j

In order to find the force we need to project vector F onto a unit vector in the direction of the ramp, so we use

v = cos(30°)i+(sin30°)j

After calculating the projection of F onto v, we get -100(cos(30°),(sin30°)). Taking the magnitude of this, we get that it takes a force of 100 pounds to keep the cart from rolling down the hill.

So I have a couple of questions about this.

First, why can we express force in pounds? Someone told me we can only express force in Newtons.
In the MKS metric system, the unit of force is the Newton. In the cgs Metric system, the unit of force is the dyne. The unit of force in the English system is the pound, so a force can be expressed in Newtons, dynes, or pounds, depending on the system of units in use in the problem.
tokki1510 said:
Second, I've seen others solve it this way:

The force required to keep the cart from rolling is 200×sin(30°)
And when they solve for the force perpendicular to the hill it is 200×cos(30°)

Why is it possible to calculate it this way as well?
The force acting down along the ramp is perpendicular to the force acting straight into the ramp. The two force vectors form the legs of a right triangle. If you draw a diagram of the forces, you should see this, and how the 30° enters into the calculation.
 
Mark44 said:
The force acting down along the ramp is perpendicular to the force acting straight into the ramp. The two force vectors form the legs of a right triangle. If you draw a diagram of the forces, you should see this, and how the 30° enters into the calculation.

In the first diagram, I used this to set up for finding the magnitude of w1 by taking the projection of F onto v.

Between the two diagrams, is w1 and AC equivalent? I thought that vectors need to have the same magnitude and direction to be equivalent.
Have I set this up correctly?

Diagram.jpg
 

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  • Diagram.jpg
    Diagram.jpg
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tokki1510 said:
Between the two diagrams, is w1 and AC equivalent?
Both vectors have the same magnitude, but they point in opposite directions. w1 is the force of the cart acting down the ramp, and AC is the force that's needed to compensate for w1.
 

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