I have read a few posts and threads in here regarding the orgin of the Univers and also the big bang (BB). Some of the posts seemed to get a little heated. I am merley looking for clarification and honest dialog and input. First off I am a philosopher and I follow science so I tend to attack these ideas from both points of view and I spend time combining them. It is tough sitting with philosophers that know very little about science, and conversely I get a similar feel from the science end. Please bear with me as I work with the two. I really believe philosophy is science in as much as philosophy is thinking and our brains seem to follow quantum mechanics, network theory, biology, etc. all of which are in the realm of science. Anyway. continuing on from some previous threads. I need to know if the current theories support a t=0. My understaning is that in quantum mechanics we cannot have a zero point sum. ( i believe that is the term) There is no point in which a particle can have a specific speed and location at a specifiv time. The particle actually moves a bit like a pendulum crossing states but never at a zero point at any given time. The only equations, theories, ideas, we can fully say MIGHT have a t=0 (or t=x) is the BB. Before that point we have to use imaginary time on a vertical axis to time (on the x axis) So discussions about "before" the BB are always in imaginary time. eg. A false start in football is decided on an arbitrary measure of time decided by humans (philosophy) Once the players are set the ref decides at some point in his mind that any movement by the offense would be a false start. With the movement being the cause of the penalty, defensive movement etc. BUT, my understanding is that mathematically, if you were to create an equation of the situation, you could run the equation backwards and forwards with no regard to cause and effect. In fact the famous philosopher Bertrand Russel thought that Cause and effect should be changed in science since it is a human interpretation and possible misunderstanings etc. (sorry, thats another topic) So here is the idea I am trying to clear up and I am not sure if the math or physics support this. If we cannot delineate a specific point in time x (due to quantum fluxuations) then we cannot say A caused B, because we could argue the Z caused A which Caused B. This goes to First Cause. Since my understanding of Cause and Effect take into account Time then the first cause would be T=0. Before T=0 time does not exist, therefore by my definition of Cause and Effect (at point t=x A caused B) The only point in space time that we can say was a cause is the BB. The BB had no cause since there was no time before it, and cause and effect need the time component. The BB was THE cause and that false start in football is point ZZZZ billions of years down the road. The understanding of this would be to go to philosophy and realize our minds and conscience have evolved to understand our world. A 3-d representation of surroundings and places that we must interpret in order to survive. We have learned to think cause and effect because we learned to interpret that a crouching tiger was about to pounce and the effect would be that we are eaten. (or our best friend who just could not run as fast as us) K. That was a lot. but its a start. So, is there a t=0? Is my understanding of the quantum fluxuations close in regards to delineating a specific point in time? Is there a definitive mathematical "cause and effect"? other ideas?