Quick Questions on Free Indices - Four-Vector Notation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the basics of four-vector notation and the concept of free indices in tensor calculus, particularly in the context of general relativity (GR) and special relativity (SR). Participants seek clarification on the definitions and implications of these concepts, as well as their applications in equations involving tensors and scalars.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about the equality of the four-vector components, specifically whether dxμ is equal to itself under different metric conventions.
  • There is a discussion on the meaning of "free indices," with some participants explaining that free indices are not summed over and indicate the transformation properties of tensors.
  • Participants explore the necessity of pairing upper and lower indices to construct scalars, with references to how contravariant and covariant vectors transform under coordinate changes.
  • One participant requests clarification on the term "relation" in the context of free indices and is provided with examples of how relations hold for all components.
  • There is a debate about the understanding of four-vector notation, with some participants questioning the assumption that someone could be new to this notation after studying SR.
  • A participant seeks help with a specific equation involving the permutation symbol and its relation to the components of a tensor, leading to a discussion about the antisymmetry of the permutation symbol.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on transforming an expression to covariant form, prompting an explanation involving the inner product of four-vectors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions of free indices and their implications but express differing views on the familiarity with four-vector notation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific applications and interpretations of certain equations.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the metric convention can affect the signs of components in four-vectors, and there is an acknowledgment that the understanding of free indices may depend on the context of the discussion, particularly in GR versus SR.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for students and enthusiasts of physics, particularly those studying general relativity, special relativity, or tensor calculus, who seek clarification on four-vector notation and the concept of free indices.

rwooduk
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We've just started with this new notation in class and I'm just trying to get a little more insight into the basics so have a few very basic questions if someone here can help?

1)

dxμ = (dt,dx,dy,dz) I understand that's it's just a four-vector with four components but, what would
dxμ be equal to? the same thing?

2) FREE INDICES what does this term mean? free to do what? i.e.

"AμAμ is a scalar because you have no free indices"

Do the upper and lower indices pair?

similarly:

"gμvgμv is also a scalar as it has no free indices"

also

"AμBv has two free indices"

Why because they are not paired, what does all this mean?

Thanks for any points in the right direction.
 
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rwooduk said:
dxμ = (dt,dx,dy,dz) I understand that's it's just a four-vector with four components but, what would
dxμ be equal to? the same thing?
No. Depending on metric convention you would get a minus sign in the time or space components. Note that it is not particularly common to see this when it comes to the differential ##dx^\mu##, you will see it more with general vectors.
rwooduk said:
2) FREE INDICES what does this term mean?
It essentially means that the index is not being summed over and you will have one relation for every possible combination of free indices. According to the Einstein summation convention, paired indices should be summed over and free indices typically only appear once (there are exceptions when the summation convention gets in the way, these will typically be explicitly pointed out).

In order to construct scalars, you need to pair an upper idex with a lower one. This has to do with how contravariant and covariant vectors transform under coordinate changes.

In general, the position of a free index tells you the transformation properties and an object with n free indices should be viewed as the components of a tensor of rank n within the chosen basis. Often you will see these components referred to as the tensor itself, which is ok as long as the basis chosen is clear.
 
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Thanks that's very helpful!

Orodruin said:
It essentially means that the index is not being summed over and you will have one relation for every possible combination of free indices.

please could you explain the term "relation", i.e. relation of what to what?

Orodruin said:
In order to construct scalars, you need to pair an upper idex with a lower one. This has to do with how contravariant and covariant vectors transform under coordinate changes.

ahh ok that makes sense!

thanks again
 
rwooduk said:
please could you explain the term "relation", i.e. relation of what to what?

Generally you will have not only expressions, but relations with two things on different sides of an equal sign (or other type of relation). If this is the case, it should hold regardless of what values you put into the free indices. Also, you must have the same free indices on both sides of the relation. An example would be taking the equation ##\vec v = \nabla \phi## on component form, which is written
$$
v_i = \partial_i \phi,
$$
which must hold for all i, i.e., for all components.
 
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Orodruin said:
No. Depending on metric convention you would get a minus sign in the time or space components.

This is only in the special case where the metric looks like (1,-1,-1,-1) or (-1,1,1,1). The OP is probably taking a course on GR, where the metric doesn't necessarily look like that. (Even in SR, it's only in special coordinates that we get a metric of this form.)
 
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bcrowell said:
This is only in the special case where the metric looks like (1,-1,-1,-1) or (-1,1,1,1). The OP is probably taking a course on GR, where the metric doesn't necessarily look like that. (Even in SR, it's only in special coordinates that we get a metric of this form.)
This is of course true, but I have a hard time imagining someone getting through SR and still considering 4-vector notation as something they just started with.
 
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Orodruin said:
Generally you will have not only expressions, but relations with two things on different sides of an equal sign (or other type of relation). If this is the case, it should hold regardless of what values you put into the free indices. Also, you must have the same free indices on both sides of the relation. An example would be taking the equation ##\vec v = \nabla \phi## on component form, which is written
$$
v_i = \partial_i \phi,
$$
which must hold for all i, i.e., for all components.

I see, thanks again for your time
 
one more step I need help with if anyone can oblige:

##F^{12}= \delta ^{1}A^{2} - \delta ^{2}A^{1} = -\delta _{1}A^{2} + \delta _{2}A^{1}##

but then he uses:

##B_{i} = \varepsilon _{ijk} \delta _{j}A_{k}##

to get:

##F^{12}= \delta ^{1}A^{2} - \delta ^{2}A^{1} = -\delta _{1}A^{2} + \delta _{2}A^{1}= -B_{3}##

I don't understand how he has used that identity to get it equal to -B3, and why would there be a 3?

thanks for any further help
 
The ##\epsilon_{ijk}## is the permutation symbol. It is totally antisymmetric and one for ##ijk = 123##. Since you have 1 and 2 in the F, you only have the 3 left for a non-zero component of ##\epsilon##.
 
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  • #10
Orodruin said:
The ##\epsilon_{ijk}## is the permutation symbol. It is totally antisymmetric and one for ##ijk = 123##. Since you have 1 and 2 in the F, you only have the 3 left for a non-zero component of ##\epsilon##.

thanks that really helps! one more if you have time (if not it's okay)

he writes

##\Psi = R exp (-i\omega t + ik_{i}x_{i})##

as

##\Psi = R exp (-i\omega t + ik_{i}x_{i}) = R exp (-ik^{\mu }x_{\mu })##

any explanation of how he has transformed it to covarient form would be really helpful, as I just can't see it.

thanks again
 
  • #11
##k^\mu## is a 4-vector with the components ##(\omega, k_1, k_2, k_3)##. Try taking the inner product with the 4-vector ##x^\mu##, which has components ##(t,x_1,x_2,x_3)##.
 
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  • #12
Orodruin said:
##k^\mu## is a 4-vector with the components ##(\omega, k_1, k_2, k_3)##. Try taking the inner product with the 4-vector ##x^\mu##, which has components ##(t,x_1,x_2,x_3)##.

Awesome thanks very much, will try that and keep practising! it will sink in eventually!

Thanks again!
 

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