Random Thoughts Part 4 - Split Thread

[HomogenousCow]

Recalling a few tidbits from a company-wide, mandatory sexual harassment class that I took years ago (every employee in the company was required to take it), knowingly creating a sexually charged atmosphere in the workplace or classroom is itself a form of sexual harassment and is subject to disciplinary action (not to mention possible lawsuits).

But like the article says, there's not a whole lot of precedent with the online/Internet part/nature of the allegations.

Could you really sue someone for something like that? AFAIK they're not doing anything illegal.

This here: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm, saids

" Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature."

Which doesn't really appear to be the case here.

 

[Ibix]

I mean what he did was extremely unprofessional, but how was it sexual harassment?

Rule of thumb test for whether it was sexual harassment: would he have asked for naked photos of a male student? (Feel free to generalise to cover different combinations of sexes and sexual preference.) Whether she actually sent pictures or not is irrelevant.

 

[WWGD]

Rule of thumb test for whether it was sexual harassment: would he have asked for naked photos of a male student? (Feel free to generalise to cover different combinations of sexes and sexual preference.) Whether she actually sent pictures or not is irrelevant.

Compare the punishment of men who are accused of harassing women with the punishment of female high school teachers having sex with their students.

 

[Ibix]

In times of extreme PC, better to play it safe, specially with pre-assigned official victim groups like women. Feel free to trash any group of hetero white males, but don't dare even remotely imply anything bad about any group of women.

At least on the evidence presented, she suffers from anxiety and depression leading to self harm. I'd consider that as being a member of a vulnerable group deserving some protection, whatever your feelings about the balance of power between straight white men and everyone else.

 

[fresh_42]

In times of extreme PC, better to play it safe, specially with pre-assigned official victim groups like women. Feel free to trash any group of hetero white males, but don't dare even remotely imply anything bad about any group of women.

I won't say we are sexists, racists or whatever, but those issues seem to be very American. I can't imagine this being so widely discussed in the UK, France or anywhere else in Europe. David, a Brit, was right: "pc is an American invention. Don't bother it here (UK)". Maybe it has to do with the American hobby to sue everybody on every occasion on any allegation.

 

[WWGD]

At least on the evidence presented, she suffers from anxiety and depression leading to self harm. I'd consider that as being a member of a vulnerable group deserving some protection, whatever your feelings about the balance of power between straight white men and everyone else.

DId Lewin know this? People want to have it both ways, having the benefits of eccentric , talented professors, expecting them to stay within the lines. You are not likely to be able to have it both ways. I am not saying he (or any she) should have an open pass, but when they hire someone like this, eccentric, they know what they are risking. Now they are acting offended, as if this is completely unexpected.

 

[HomogenousCow]

I just feel that the article was unfair to the man. What he did was very unprofessional and more than enough to get him fired, but was he really "preying upon women" like the article claims? A lot of things seem to be implied in the article which aren't exactly reasonable.

 

[Ibix]

I just feel that the article was unfair to the man. What he did was very unprofessional and more than enough to get him fired, but was he really "preying upon women" like the article claims?

According to the article, "Lewin confessed his love for several of them, chat logs show, but often denied those feelings to women who asked about the others." Does that sound like an open and honest interaction? To me, it sounds like someone playing marks.

 

[Ibix]

DId Lewin know this?

More to the point, did he make any effort to find out?

People want to have it both ways, having the benefits of eccentric , talented professors, expecting them to stay within the lines. You are not likely to be able to have it both ways. I am not saying he (or any she) should have an open pass, but when they hire someone like this, eccentric, they know what they are risking. Now they are acting offended, as if this is completely unexpected.

Why should they not expect professors to stay within the lines? Am I correct in understanding that you assert that excellence in physics is necessarily correlated with a tendency towards sexual harassment?

 

[WWGD]

More to the point, did he make any effort to find out?

Why should they not expect professors to stay within the lines? Am I correct in understanding that you assert that excellence in physics is necessarily correlated with a tendency towards sexual harassment?

You cannot expect a professor to consider every possible condition of every student. And I am referring to eccentric people, not people who are excellent at teaching, Physics or any other topic. When you bring in someone who is knowingly eccentric, you cannot complain when they blur the boundaries of the mainstream.

 

[Ibix]

You cannot expect a professor to consider every possible condition of every student.

Depression isn't exactly rare - according to NIMH around one in fifteen US adults experience depressive episodes in a year. Around one in twenty five experience severe anxiety (NIMH again), and estimates of self harm vary between one in twenty five and one in a hundred (Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine). If he's starting with the sexual stuff on day one with multiple targets and carrying on for almost a year, as per the article HomogeneousCow linked, then yes, I can expect him to consider mental health conditions like this. Best case, with ten women (again, per HomogeneousCow's article), he's got only a fifty-fifty chance ($1-(14/15)^{10}$) of not picking one who's depressive sometime in that year. Even assuming there's no correlation between being harassed by a tutor and depression.

And I am referring to eccentric people, not people who are excellent at teaching, Physics or any other topic. When you bring in someone who is knowingly eccentric, you cannot complain when they blur the boundaries of the mainstream.

But we can, and do, insist on certain basic standards that everyone must adhere to - and we employ police forces and courts to back that up. Are you arguing that we are wrong to require some basic expectations in certain cases? If so, what cases? How much eccentricity translates to how much reduction in expectations in what areas? Should Lewin be excused theft, or assault, were he to commit these? Murder? Or should he be held to the same standard as everyone else?

Or flip it around. Self-harm, anxiety and depression aren't straight-up healthy behaviour. A little eccentric, maybe? Lewin engaged with Harbi - now he's got to put up with the consequences. After all, he cannot complain when she blurs the boundaries of the mainstream...

 

[zoobyshoe]

I won't say we are sexists, racists or whatever, but those issues seem to be very American. I can't imagine this being so widely discussed in the UK, France or anywhere else in Europe. David, a Brit, was right: "pc is an American invention. Don't bother it here (UK)". Maybe it has to do with the American hobby to sue everybody on every occasion on any allegation.

I'm going to dispute this. I believe the English have traditionally been the most PC people in all of Western culture. Of course, there's a gradient, with the upper classes being the most PC and the working class the least. But, since the upper classes of England were the model to be emulated, English culture, going back at least to Shakespeare, has been riddled with a knee-jerk politeness you don't find in the U.S. (with the possible exception of the U.S. deep south). The term PC, and the concept are American inventions, but the English have striven to embody it for a long time, under the name, "good breeding," I think.

 

[fresh_42]

I'm going to dispute this. I believe the English have traditionally been the most PC people in all of Western culture. Of course, there's a gradient, with the upper classes being the most PC and the working class the least. But, since the upper classes of England were the model to be emulated, English culture, going back at least to Shakespeare, has been riddled with a knee-jerk politeness you don't find in the U.S. (with the possible exception of the U.S. deep south). The term PC, and the concept are American inventions, but the English have striven to embody it for a long time, under the name, "good breeding," I think.

I don't know Shakespeare's English. What I do know is that British English and American English differs a lot, and I don't mean a few "z" or "u". To understand British you always have to read between the lines. What is said and what is meant can be the exact opposite. You can even insult people in a manner that sounds like pure politeness. I do not claim the British usually don't behave correctly, they do as anyone else. But as far as I have experienced it, the levels of tolerance are much higher than in the US. It is far more likely that a British woman simply strikes back on sexual intimations than complaining about it. In any case the likelihood of coming such to the courts is far less than in the US. And my quote wasn't from someone of lower class.

 

[WWGD]

Depression isn't exactly rare - according to NIMH around one in fifteen US adults experience depressive episodes in a year. Around one in twenty five experience severe anxiety (NIMH again), and estimates of self harm vary between one in twenty five and one in a hundred (Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine). If he's starting with the sexual stuff on day one with multiple targets and carrying on for almost a year, as per the article HomogeneousCow linked, then yes, I can expect him to consider mental health conditions like this. Best case, with ten women (again, per HomogeneousCow's article), he's got only a fifty-fifty chance ($1-(14/15)^{10}$) of not picking one who's depressive sometime in that year. Even assuming there's no correlation between being harassed by a tutor and depression.

But we can, and do, insist on certain basic standards that everyone must adhere to - and we employ police forces and courts to back that up. Are you arguing that we are wrong to require some basic expectations in certain cases? If so, what cases? How much eccentricity translates to how much reduction in expectations in what areas? Should Lewin be excused theft, or assault, were he to commit these? Murder? Or should he be held to the same standard as everyone else?

Or flip it around. Self-harm, anxiety and depression aren't straight-up healthy behaviour. A little eccentric, maybe? Lewin engaged with Harbi - now he's got to put up with the consequences. After all, he cannot complain when she blurs the boundaries of the mainstream...

No need to take this to an absurd of allowing Newin to steal or murder. Just that maybe some warnings and some arrangements could be made to avoid problems created by someone who is offbeat. And I don't know if Newin was aware of the statistics you cite. Should he be aware of this? Should the school itself be aware of these statistics and maybe the could consider the possible problems with the interactions of someone like Newin with depressed students? Why is all the weight of responsibility on Newin?

 

[Ibix]

No need to take this to an absurd of allowing Newin to steal or murder.

But sexual harassment is fine? I'm trying to find out where you are thinking of drawing the line. And, again, what degree of eccentricity makes this kind of behaviour acceptable? What does Harbi's self-harming give her license to do in your scheme?

Just that maybe some warnings and some arrangements could be made to avoid problems created by someone who is offbeat.

There already are such arrangements, but apparently Lewin did not follow them. Again from HomogeneousCow's article: MIT last month announced that an investigation had determined that Lewin, 78, had “engaged in online sexual harassment in violation of MIT policies.” (Emphasis mine).

And I don't know if Newin was aware of the statistics you cite. Should he be aware of this?

Of the specific statistics? Maybe not. Of the notion that not everyone (mental health issues or not) is self-confident enough to tell a famous professor who actively gets in touch with them to stop being a creep? Yes.

Should the school itself consider the possible problems with the interactions of someone like Newin with depressed students? Why is all the weight of responsibility on Newin?

Who should the responsibility for Lewin's own behaviour lie with? If it's the school, well they did set out policies which he violated. If it's the students, they are now taking action and you seem to think this is wrong. We're really only left with Lewin to accept responsiblity here. Which isn't exactly unreasonable, to be honest.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't know Shakespeare's English. What I do know is that British English and American English differs a lot, and I don't mean a few "z" or "u". To understand British you always have to read between the lines. What is said and what is meant can be the exact opposite. You can even insult people in a manner that sounds like pure politeness.

I'm extremely aware of this, and you see the same thing in U.S. deep south politeness. But political correctness is always a facade, adopted by people who want to maintain a social status. Being politically incorrect is something like revealing yourself to be a social moron. You lose status, much as we see happening to Donald trump as he commits error after error in his remarks, and degenerates into a persona non grata among the politically correct.

I do not claim the British usually don't behave correctly, they do as anyone else. But as far as I have experienced it, the levels of tolerance are much higher than in the US. It is far more likely that a British woman simply strikes back on sexual intimations than complaining about it. In any case the likelihood of coming such to the courts is far less than in the US. And my quote wasn't from someone of lower class.

I am not so sure. I base my opinion of the English level of political correctness on it's TV shows. You may think that's a stupid way to judge, but I see a definite correlation between American political correctness and it's TV shows, therefore I assume the same correlation in English shows. People who are racially prejudiced, prejudiced against women, gays, short people, other religions, etc. are invariably cast as bad guys or social morons. The good guys are all very sensitive to all people's needs and feelings and rights.

However, I could be the victim of selective programming. It could be US TV won't air any English shows that don't adhere to those standards. I'm not 100% confident of my claim here, but I do have a suspicion your informant was really only speaking for himself and shouldn't be taken as representative.

 

[WWGD]

But sexual harassment is fine? I'm trying to find out where you are thinking of drawing the line. And, again, what degree of eccentricity makes this kind of behaviour acceptable? What does Harbi's self-harming give her license to do in your scheme?

There already are such arrangements, but apparently Lewin did not follow them. Again from HomogeneousCow's article: MIT last month announced that an investigation had determined that Lewin, 78, had “engaged in online sexual harassment in violation of MIT policies.” (Emphasis mine).

Of the specific statistics? Maybe not. Of the notion that not everyone (mental health issues or not) is self-confident enough to tell a famous professor who actively gets in touch with them to stop being a creep? Yes.

Who should the responsibility for Lewin's own behaviour lie with? If it's the school, well they did set out policies which he violated. If it's the students, they are now taking action and you seem to think this is wrong. We're really only left with Lewin to accept responsiblity here. Which isn't exactly unreasonable, to be honest.

Responsibility does not have to be an either/or: if the school wants to allow weak, vulnerable students to attend classes then it should make an effort to make sure they are protected and consider beforehand the impact of exposing them to someone like Lewin. It is a shared responsibility in my view.

 

[fresh_42]

People who are racially prejudiced, prejudiced against women, gays, short people, other religions, etc. are invariably cast as bad guys or social morons.

I see our differences here now. I haven't been talking about behaving in an inappropriate manner. Of course not. I meant the way people talk to each other or telling jokes, which are not pc. Sometimes we have similar discussions here on events where people crossed the lines of decency. I simply think in the US it's far more often and also turns into trials more often. My quote of what David said was after he told a joke that wasn't pc. (I don't remember the joke, and there were only two guys listening.) Not every bawdiness is worth talking about. And women can and do as well.

 

[fresh_42]

It is in general far more difficult to obey common rules in the US than it is anywhere in Europe, for you just might not know them. E.g. drinking a beer on the deck of a house in MI - I haven't any clue whether that could causes me trouble. Plus in the US with a little of a bad luck you can get arrested for nothing. (At least these events show up in the news and TV shows.) Here we are used to talk to our police officers in the first place. And nobody will draw a gun. I know Americans who say they feel much more being free on this side of the Atlantic.

 

[WWGD]

It is in general far more difficult to obey common rules in the US than it is anywhere in Europe, for you just might not know them. E.g. drinking a beer on the deck of a house in MI - I haven't any clue whether that could causes me trouble. Plus in the US with a little of a bad luck you can get arrested for nothing. (At least these events show up in the news and TV shows.) Here we are used to talk to our police officers in the first place. And nobody will draw a gun. I know Americans who say they feel much more being free on this side of the Atlantic.

Well, a lot of the "issues" are created by TV stations in order to get ratings. TV reporting is now seem as a business ( I understand it was somewhat different in the pre-internet area, where it was not intended as a moneymaker, it was just supposed to break even, a sort of social obligation of the stations towards the people. Maybe this is somewhat romanticized, but I think overall true ). Now, with news seen as a money maker and having to compete against the internet, they have reacted to this by manipulating the news so as to appeal to radicals.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I see our differences here now. I haven't been talking about behaving in an inappropriate manner. Of course not. I meant the way people talk to each other or telling jokes, which are not pc. Sometimes we have similar discussions here on events where people crossed the lines of decency. I simply think in the US it's far more often and also turns into trials more often. My quote of what David said was after he told a joke that wasn't pc. (I don't remember the joke, and there were only two guys listening.) Not every bawdiness is worth talking about. And women can and do as well.

I think private political incorrectness is alive and well in the U.S. Whether it's worse in England would be hard to pin down. I'm not sure how you could measure it because people would hide it at the hint of suspicion, and anything like a questionnaire would be useless. I think it would be possible to compare the ratio of public actions against politically incorrect behaviors, though, like sanctions, censures, firings and trials. Those statistics are surely available if someone wanted to dig for them.

 

[WWGD]

I think private political incorrectness is alive and well in the U.S. Whether it's worse in England would be hard to pin down. I'm not sure how you could measure it because people would hide it at the hint of suspicion, and anything like a questionnaire would be useless. I think it would be possible to compare the ratio of public actions against politically incorrect behaviors, though, like sanctions, censures, firings and trials. Those statistics are surely available if someone wanted to dig for them.

Remember what happened to Bill Maher back in 2001 when he made some comments on 9/11? He was ostracized. He had a show called " Politically Incorrect". It ws quickly taken off the air by popular request after the comments he made. That was a while back, but I don't know of any similar show of a similar sort on basic cable TV today.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Remember what happened to Bill Maher back in 2001 when he made some comments on 9/11? He was ostracized. He had a show called " Politically Incorrect". It ws quickly taken off the air by popular request after the comments he made. That was a while back, but I don't know of any similar show of a similar sort on basic cable TV today.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Speaking of cowardly: when I went down to Starbucks today, there was a guy sitting drinking coffee and looking at his laptop who was covered with masses of little bumps. I had to resist the urge to walk out fast, telling myself, "It CAN'T be smallpox! He'd be writhing in agony if it was."

 

[WWGD]

Still, to be fair, there is a right place and a right way of saying things , which can be done without sacrificing truthfulness. True that there is a thin line between beeing sensitive and PC, but those that are adept ( I don't necessarily include myself here ) can walk that line without resorting to PC. An example, I guess, is that of a doctor telling a patient they are dying.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Still, to be fair, there is a right place and a right way of saying things , which can be done without sacrificing truthfulness. True that there is a thin line between beeing sensitive and PC, but those that are adept ( I don't necessarily include myself here ) can walk that line without resorting to PC. An example, I guess, is that of a doctor telling a patient they are dying.

If you're saying Bill was less being politically incorrect than he was just plain insensitive, then yes.

 

[zoobyshoe]

What is the politically correct way of telling someone they are dying? "Mr. Smith, I need to discuss the fact our recent round of tests indicate you may have some longevity challenges facing you."

 

[Ibix]

Responsibility does not have to be an either/or: if the school wants to allow weak, vulnerable students to attend classes then it should make an effort to make sure they are protected and consider beforehand the impact of exposing them to someone like Lewin. It is a shared responsibility in my view.

MIT gave him a platform, as they give a platform to many academics. Lewin's actions with that platform were his own (or, at least, I've seen no evidence to the contrary). MIT own the responsibility to check that their staff aren't abusing their position and to take action when they do (which they seem to have done, although possibly later than they should have). The staff have to own the responsibility not to abuse their platform.

Abuse of trust is the core of it, I think. Lewin abused MIT's trust that he would be a respectful teacher and he abused the students' trust that he would be a respectful teacher. Certainly MIT have a resposibility to their students to police the trust they put in their professors to some extent, but the ultimate responsibility for not abusing trust can only belong to the person being trusted.

I feel this has gone on long enough for the random thoughts thread, so I'm drawing a line for myself under the topic here.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Thinking about it, I can't remember ever having dropped a piece of toast on the floor in my life.

That's highly improbable, so, congrats!

 

[HomogenousCow]

and he abused the students' trust that he would be a respectful teacher.

Again I feel like you're implying something unreasonable here. People are making it sound like he raped a student or something, when in fact it was completely consensual. (We haven't read any evidence of the contrary)