Reasons To Vote For Kerry: Things He Will Do To Improve America

[amp]

Whats the name of that country over in Europe where most of everyones income goes to taxs but the Gov't provides universal healthcare, complete unemployeement insurance, free training to the unemployeed (I think), and a host of other services, is it Sweden or Switzerland ?

How about this, what if the average income per household(family) were $200,000 ? What do you think the Bell Curve would look like? Could the tax code be restructured so that such a redistribution could take occur? What would the poverty level be in such a case?

 

[Artman]

This question got me wondering what he would do. So I figured the man is currently a US Senator, so he should be trying to do those same things through his current office, right? So I read his bill summary.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/R?d108:FLD003:@1(sen+Kerry)

The positive impression I got from reading these was a vision of an idealist with respect for the military, an interest in helping small business, and low income families.

The negative impressions I got were that he was pretty ineffectual in getting his legislation through (many Bills stuck in committees), that he also has some Bills pending that made me think of special interests such as duty-free treatment for certain tuna (I tried to read this bill but could not access it), tax breaks for stock sales, Federal historical site creation and preservation money designated for his home state and a neighboring state.

Would he be a bad president? Probably not. Can he do all the things he has promised? No way.

 

[BobG]

The top 1% of income earners pay less than 30%, not 90%, of federal income taxes, as of 2000. Considering total federal tax burden, that goes down to about 20%.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/Tfdb/TFTemplate.cfm?DocID=221&Topic2id=20&Topic3id=22

Njorl

Are you sure you and Russ aren't mixing apples and oranges? I think you're talking about tax RATES. 30% of 150,000 is 45,000. 25% of 40,000 is 10,000. With a 5% difference in income tax rate, the TOTAL tax paid is over 4 times as much.

Add in the other taxes one pays - sales tax for every purchase, inheritance taxes, property taxes, etc., consider which class is most likely to be affected by them, and the wealthy are paying much more than 30% of the total taxes taken in.

Not that that is a bad thing. The people gaining the most from the nation's economy should be the ones financing the nation - they have the most to lose if it isn't financed. The ones paying the lowest tax rates (or no taxes at all) are still struggling to for the opportunity to be the people financing the nation. A worthwhile goal everyone's striving for, right?

I know I considered it a pretty significant milestone when I started getting back less in refunds than I'd paid in taxes instead of getting refunds larger than what I'd paid in. I guess still owing yet more taxes come April 15 is an equally significant milestone, but, somehow, it's not quite as fun as the first milestone.

And don't raise the minimum wage. It's fun to pretend raising the minimum wage will increase the number of jobs that are capable of supporting families, but the real effect is to steal those first 'pay your dues' jobs from the young. As John said, increasing minimum wage just lowers the cost of going automated and eliminating the job altogether.

 

[kcballer21]

I know this thread has diverted somewhat from its original topic, but I just wanted to add a link that elaborates on Kerry's healthcare plan that some people have already mentioned:

Medical Class Warfare

Sounds good to me.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Here's the poop.

http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/#Head-3.htm

In 1995 the top quintile bore 65% of the taxes. That's now lower with Bush's selective tax cuts.

 

[Njorl]

Are you sure you and Russ aren't mixing apples and oranges? I think you're talking about tax RATES. 30% of 150,000 is 45,000. 25% of 40,000 is 10,000. With a 5% difference in income tax rate, the TOTAL tax paid is over 4 times as much.

I'm sure. I am not talking about tax rates.

Add in the other taxes one pays - sales tax for every purchase, inheritance taxes, property taxes, etc., consider which class is most likely to be affected by them, and the wealthy are paying much more than 30% of the total taxes taken in.

No, they are not. Federal income tax is the most progressive tax there is. All other taxes are more regressive, and tend to increase the share of the tax load paid by the less wealthy. The estate tax was the only tax that was more progressive than the federal income tax.

Not that that is a bad thing. The people gaining the most from the nation's economy should be the ones financing the nation - they have the most to lose if it isn't financed. The ones paying the lowest tax rates (or no taxes at all) are still struggling to for the opportunity to be the people financing the nation. A worthwhile goal everyone's striving for, right?

I know I considered it a pretty significant milestone when I started getting back less in refunds than I'd paid in taxes instead of getting refunds larger than what I'd paid in. I guess still owing yet more taxes come April 15 is an equally significant milestone, but, somehow, it's not quite as fun as the first milestone.

And don't raise the minimum wage. It's fun to pretend raising the minimum wage will increase the number of jobs that are capable of supporting families, but the real effect is to steal those first 'pay your dues' jobs from the young. As John said, increasing minimum wage just lowers the cost of going automated and eliminating the job altogether.

No increase in the minimum wage has ever produced a statistically noticeable impact on minimum wage employment. Of course, no increase in the minimum wage has ever been by very much either, so it isn't surprising. I think the proper level for a minimum wage, if such a thing exists, is that level at which jobs would start disapearing. I'm sure it is a good deal higher than the present level, but I have no idea where.

Njorl

 

[loseyourname]

No increase in the minimum wage has ever produced a statistically noticeable impact on minimum wage employment. Of course, no increase in the minimum wage has ever been by very much either, so it isn't surprising. I think the proper level for a minimum wage, if such a thing exists, is that level at which jobs would start disapearing. I'm sure it is a good deal higher than the present level, but I have no idea where.

Njorl

That because increases have always been enacted to offset inflation, which is perfectly fair. That is all an increase should do. There is no mandate to enact a living wage. People who are supporting themselves should not be working minimum wage jobs. Heck, the first job I ever had paid $12/hr. It isn't that difficult to find decent money if you really look. Even when I have taken lower paying jobs, I was always promoted quickly and soon made decent money.

 

[BobG]

That because increases have always been enacted to offset inflation, which is perfectly fair. That is all an increase should do. There is no mandate to enact a living wage. People who are supporting themselves should not be working minimum wage jobs. Heck, the first job I ever had paid $12/hr. It isn't that difficult to find decent money if you really look. Even when I have taken lower paying jobs, I was always promoted quickly and soon made decent money.

$12 an hour?! My first job, I made 20 cents less than minimum wage (he didn't have enough employees to be affected by minimum wage under the laws at the time) In spite of the pay, you almost never had anyone quit. Heck, anyone would be lucky to work in a place like that for free just for the job reference - I know - the owner told us that all the time.

It was a neighborhood ice cream parlor, usually with a college freshman or sophomore as the night manager and high school kids for the other jobs, such as waitress, soda jerk, dishwasher, etc. That was such a big part of our social life we couldn't quit. After work parties, group trips to Geauga Lake, group trips out to Wolf Ledges - just a great time!

And I did get promoted pretty quickly and soon was making 10 cents over minimum wage as the ice cream maker (The local newspaper recognized our store as having the best ice cream in Summit county the year I made it. )

 

[Njorl]

Minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation since 1981. It would be about $7/hr now if it had.

Njorl

 

[Artman]

My wife and I ran a small video store for 14 years. How much would you like to pay a high school or college kid to watch tv, do their homework and occassionally wait on a customer?

Small business owners cannot afford to pay more than the current minimum wage level. Often minimum wage jobs are the first type of job a person will get. This person is not worth even minimum wage to that small business owner until they are trained. They come with such skills as believing that 10% discount is a $10.00 off (it doesn't matter how much the purchase is. Yeah this happened to us, so much for the school system.) We teach them how to count back change, close out the cash drawer, deal with people... We would take a shy, unsure teenager and train them into a person ready for the business world. Then they go off to college, come home and get a real job and realize how much they owe us for the experience.

I think Mr. Kerry ought to try owning a video store for a couple of years instead of Heinz Foods.

 

[Dissident Dan]

My wife and I ran a small video store for 14 years. How much would you like to pay a high school or college kid to watch tv, do their homework and occassionally wait on a customer?

...

I think Mr. Kerry ought to try owning a video store for a couple of years instead of Heinz Foods.

Firstly, Kerry does not and never did own Heinz. Secondly, I worked a minimum wage job at McDonald's when I was 16 and they worked me constantly. Wages only make up a fraction of a business's expenses, and an increase of a $1-2 an hour won't make money-wise (or even not-so-money-wise) entrepreneurs go broke.

 

[BobG]

Firstly, Kerry does not and never did own Heinz. Secondly, I worked a minimum wage job at McDonald's when I was 16 and they worked me constantly. Wages only make up a fraction of a business's expenses, and an increase of a $1-2 an hour won't make money-wise (or even not-so-money-wise) entrepreneurs go broke.

It won't make McDonald's broke, but a lot of your small family owned businesses would be lucky not to go broke even with a lower minimum wage.

 

[Dissident Dan]

I'm not trying to be insulting, if paying employees a little more breaks the bank, it sounds like either you picked the wrong business in the wrong place or are not cut out for entrepreneurship.

Also, please note that minimum wage has not kept up with inflation, so current minimum wage levels are easier on business-owners than they were 5-15 years ago.

 

[loseyourname]

It depends on where you live. Here in California, the minimum wage is $6.75/hr. I believe the highest rate is $6.90/hr in the state of Washington.

 

[Andre]

It seems that the Democrats have also prioritized on environmental issues, which is excellent. However, spearhead of environmental issues at present is "Antropogenic Global Warming" (AGW) which is beyond bad. It's disasterous.

http://democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=global%20warming

Perhaps check the Earth files to find lots of arguments against AGW. Save the whales, the tigers, the oceans, the tropical rainforest, but please please please forget about global warming. It's a non issue, a hype. But it's likely to ruin words economy if Kyoto is really implemented. We cannot save whales, tigers, oceans and rain forests from a prospect of sheer poverty.

When will common sense return?

 

[Prometheus]

When will common sense return?

Please look in the mirror and pose that question again. Let us know what response you get.

By the way, what do you mean by "return"?

 

[Andre]

Yes I know I'm just sticking my neck out to be chopped off. It's only a warning. I won't live anyway to see the disastreous results.

 

[Andre]

How about:

Please look in the mirror and pose that question again.

Although very politely hidden, you are using the standard http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html of the global warmers. Anywone who is "against" global warming is a selfish greedy pig who has no concern for others.

 

[BobG]

I'm not trying to be insulting, if paying employees a little more breaks the bank, it sounds like either you picked the wrong business in the wrong place or are not cut out for entrepreneurship.

Also, please note that minimum wage has not kept up with inflation, so current minimum wage levels are easier on business-owners than they were 5-15 years ago.

The problem is that almost none of your small family owned businesses can compete if the larger chains operate smartly.

It's hard to say consumers are disadvantaged by that. If the local outlet of the chain store can offer cheaper prices, reliable service, and hold on to key employees long enough to provide the same atmosphere your family businesses can, then the consumer's gaining quite a bit. (And that means the store has to pay more than minimum wage to at least the core of their service jobs).

The few family businesses that do succeed make it on customer loyalty built a long time ago. When the owners retire, the store closes and there's no new family businesses to replace them. New family businesses just can't hang in there long enough to build up a customer base, anymore.

It just leaves a little twinge of nostalgic sadness to see all of your cities turning into cookie cutter replicas of each other, each having the exact same stores and restaraunts.

 

[BobG]

That's YOUR experience. If someone has to support themselves and they don't have the skills and/or education to find a $12/hr job, where do you suggest they work? That's why businesses have gotten away with paying minimum wage for so long--because some people have no choice but to take those jobs, and sometimes work two or three of them at a time. Maybe there's lots of $12/hr jobs in California, but try finding those in Mississippi, rural Arizona, North Carolina, etc.

I've done that. In a town enduring a slow death as the rubber companies slowly moved out, everyone gets affected. Laid off from my construction job, a friend of mine hooked me up with a minimum wage security guard job. Later, I caught a lucky break when the night attendant at a gas station out on the interstate got shot in the head - I took his job.

While most of those minimum wage jobs are there for new young employees with no job experience in normal times, those guys get bumped out pretty quick when the real jobs disappear. And then having a few more of those minimum wage jobs at least provide some sort of short term safety net.

In my home town, I think those jobs probably wound up being more than just short term safety nets, though. I wouldn't know. Being young with a new family, it just made sense to move on somewhere where the future looked a little brighter.

 

[loseyourname]

That's YOUR experience. If someone has to support themselves and they don't have the skills and/or education to find a $12/hr job, where do you suggest they work?

Since when is a business owner obligated to pay an employee more than he's worth because he has to support himself without skills or education?

That's why businesses have gotten away with paying minimum wage for so long--because some people have no choice but to take those jobs, and sometimes work two or three of them at a time.

Guess what? Some of these people would have no job if it weren't for minimum wage jobs. The reason businesses have gotten away with paying minimum wage is because that is the market value for the work being performed.

Maybe there's lots of $12/hr jobs in California, but try finding those in Mississippi, rural Arizona, North Carolina, etc.

$12 in California is probably about equal to $6 in Mississippi.

 

[Artman]

If this is all these employees did for you, why did you keep them on? Sounds more like an error in judgment on your part rather than an argument against raising minimum wage.

There wasn't much for them to do, they usually did what was asked. the problem isn't the difficulty of the work, but the time. My wife and I could not work all of the hours ourself, so we hired high school kids to make up some of the hours.

The fact of the matter is that this job and thousands like it don't warrant a higher minimum wage. They don't earn enough for the employer to offset a higher wage. These jobs don't don't require many skills (although some are certainly helpful, such as basic math skills.) If you raise the wages for this type job you will knock thousands of high school kids out of work. Thus placing higher burdens on their parents to support them.

Either that or the higher cost will be passed on to the consumer, then the cost of living goes up.

Fact is, those kids made more money from our business than we did. We made sure they were paid, even if we were not. Business owners don't have a minimum wage to protect them. If there is no profit or a loss it is on them to absorb it.

I've read a list of Mr. Kerry's bills that he has brought to the Senate. Many of them deal with small businesses, I didn't see any in the list that would have benefitted mine. While he might want to help small business, he does not seem to understand it.

Firstly, Kerry does not and never did own Heinz. Secondly, I worked a minimum wage job at McDonald's when I was 16 and they worked me constantly. Wages only make up a fraction of a business's expenses, and an increase of a $1-2 an hour won't make money-wise (or even not-so-money-wise) entrepreneurs go broke.

Firstly, Yeah, his wife does, big difference. Secondly, you worked for a national chain with millions of dollars in advertising, bulk buying power, and many other benefits over a small business.

I agree that McDonalds does get every dime's worth of work out of their employees. For one thing, you are under consant supervision. If a mom and pop store provides constant supervision it means mom or pop is there. If mom or pop is there, there is no need for the employee to be there. We eventually had to put in a video survelliance system to watch that the employees weren't driving away customers by having friends hang around.

It won't make McDonald's broke, but a lot of your small family owned businesses would be lucky not to go broke even with a lower minimum wage.

Thanks BobG. I agree completely.

 

[loseyourname]

What if all they can get is a minimum wage job?

Again, that is not a public problem, and it is not the employer's problem. The employer's problem is staying in business and making a profit. If all they can get is a minimum wage job, then maybe they should go back to school.

Again, you're not following the logic in my post. Your original post had the tone that because you made $12 an hour at your first job, that everybody else should be able to, too. You make it sound like these jobs are abundant "as long as you look hard enough." That's not correct.

The jobs are out there. My girlfriend's brother got a job as a busboy at the local rib joint right after graduating from high school and pulls in at least $300 a week working less than 20 hours. All he does is pull dishes off of tables. He doesn't even have to talk to anyone. I said that if you look hard enough, you can find a better paying job. That is true. Jobs in food-service and commission-based sales, in particular, offer great opportunities for people with no education and little to no experience to make good money. I made $12/hr. moving office furniture around in a warehouse. I made $14/hr. as a Census Enumerator. I made $13/hr. as a performer at Disneyland. The one time I took a minimum wage job (as a stock-person at a retail store), I worked my ass off, got promoted, and within 6 months made $12/hr. as the stock manager. My girlfriend pulls in a couple hundred dollars a day as a server at a mexican restaurant - her first job with no experience.

Even if one had to work a minimum wage job, there are studio apartments available around here for about $500 a month. The minimum wage here is $6.75/hr, which after taxes comes to about $5/hr, most of which you get back at the end of the year. This comes to about $800 a month, leaving $300 for food and utilities and bus fare, which is certainly enough. If you live with roommates, it's even more affordable. I know you can find cheaper rents elsewhere, too. I had a friend in WV that had a one-bedroom place at $200 a month.

I agree--I don't think any employer should pay an employee more than they're worth. Since you made $12 an hour at you first job, I take it you've never had to work at McDonald's or some other crappy fast-food or retail job. I have. I earned $4.25 an hour (minimum wage back then). I know I worked harder there than I ever did at any other job, and I deserved more than $4.25 an hour. I saw the receipts at the end of the day--I knew this business was making plenty of money and could afford to pay me more. It's not about paying people more than what their skill or education level is--it's about ripping people off who work hard, all for the sake of your own profit.

Ripping people off? You don't sound very grateful that McDonald's gave you a job. Where does this attitude of entitlement come from? You people act like it's your birthright as an American to live a middle-class lifestyle. God forbid you actually have to work for something. An employee is not paid based on how hard he works. He is paid based on how much he is worth. Presumably had you quit and not been replaced, McDonald's would not have lost much more than $5 or so an hour. Don't forget that they also pay insurance for you guys, not to mention health benefits for full-time employees. There are also overhead costs such as lease and food-service licensing and franchise fees.

I believe that's the rationale of sweatshop owners in the third world, too. Hey, they're lucky to get 12 cents an hour there, right? Make 'em work 80 hours a week too--since they're not educated or skilled, who cares?

And you know what? Many of those people did not even make 12 cents an hour before the sweatshop moved in. Don't forget these are the same people that provide extremely affordable products to poor customers in the US.

 

[Prometheus]

Anywone who is "against" global warming is a selfish greedy pig who has no concern for others.

Sorry, but I do not understand what you mean by "against" global warming.

Although very politely hidden, you are using the standard ad hominem fallacy of the global warmers.

Wow. You were able to discover the ad hominem fallacy that I have so politely hidden in the text? Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no ad hominem, there is no fallacy, and there is nothing hidden, polite or otherwise.

You merely made a meaningless generalization, and I made the same meaningless generalization, changing the subject to make it about you instead of about your topic.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Uneducated adults working unskilled jobs should question why they have no education or skills. Why blame the employer?

 

[loseyourname]

Try telling that to someone who has to work 80 hours a week to survive.

Are they born having to fend for themselves?

Again, I'm assuming these are all CALIFORNIA wages. Like you said in a previous post "$12 in California equals $6 in Mississippi." Those numbers you throw out don't sound so great when you cut them in half, do they?

Are you having trouble understanding cost of living? A person that makes $6/hr in Mississippi (close to minimum wage) has as much spending power as a person that makes $12/hr in California.

Again, you should read posts more carefully before you respond to them. I never said I worked at McDonanld's.

You said you worked a crappy retail/fast food job and mentioned McDonald's. Excuse me. This makes a huge difference, doesn't it?

Are you saying I don't work? How do you know anything about me? Based on my posts, you're jumping to a big conclusion there, no? FYI, I've worked FULL-TIME since I was 16. I paid my own way through college and graduate school. Nobody ever handed me anything, and I never expected anyone to. And who exactly are you referring to when you say "you people"? I'm just curious to know other group you're lumping me in with, just in case you happen to be wrong again.

Calm down, Elizabeth. I didn't mean you personally. When I say "you people," I mean you and Dan, specifically, and more generally, all supporters of living wage laws and social welfare. By the way, I think it's a little ironic that you managed to pay your way through everything working minimum wage jobs and seem to be doing pretty well while at the same time arguing that minimum wage is not enough to get by on.

Since when did minimum wage jobs start paying for health insurance for their employees? Again, I wouldn't know about McDonalds, but I sure as hell never got any health benefits at the pit I worked at.

At pits like that, the only full-time employees are the management staff. They received health benefits.

So you think sweatshops are a GOOD idea? Well then, I have a GREAT idea--lets make 'em work 100 hours a week, and only pay them 6 cents an hour. That'll make stuff even MORE affordable for all the "poor people" in the United States who buy $100 Nike shoes and $50 T-shirts. Better yet, how about we pay them NOTHING? Brilliant!

Thanks for completely hijacking the thread and then even managing to change the subject of the hijack. By the way, what's a good example of a country with sweatshops? Thailand? If you're curious, 12 US cents is worth about 5 Thailand Bahts (their equivalent of the dollar), so if they really are making 12 cents an hour, that's only 15 cents less than our minimum wage.

 

[JohnDubYa]

Maybe rent in Mississippi costs half as much as it does in California, but does food? How about diapers? Clothes? Electricity? The cost of living is not based on rent alone--that is your error in logic.

Electricity:

Mississippi: 6.48 cents per kilowatt-hour.
California: 10.81 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Source: http://www.nol.org/home/NEO/statshtml/115.htm

Gasoline:

Mississippi: $1.80 per gallon.
California: $2.25 per gallon.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/gasprices/

Having lived in the Midwest and California, there is no comparison: California has a much higher cost of living. And while rent is not the only consideration, it is a huge one. A family in Mississippi will have roughly $300 more each month simply due to the lower rent.

 

[Kalimaa23]

Whats the name of that country over in Europe where most of everyones income goes to taxs but the Gov't provides universal healthcare, complete unemployeement insurance, free training to the unemployeed (I think), and a host of other services, is it Sweden or Switzerland ?

Most European countries are like that.
Belgian has always been in the UN top 5 on the list of countries with the highest quality of life, and has the best healthcare system in the world.

The tax rate is usually 40%-60%, depending on how much you make. If you make more money, you pay a higher percentage.
In return, we get unemployement fees when you're out of work, the governement pays pack about 95% of all medical expenses, and education is dirt cheap. It is even included in the constitution that lower and secondary education should be free. It's not, but it's so cheap that nobody complains anyway.
Higher education is heavily state-subsidized as well. On average, you pay about 500 euro's (about the 600 dollars these days) a year to go to university, and then there's an extensive grant system, free housing and such for those who need it.

Thank god that I live in a country with a strong Socialist party

 

[JohnDubYa]

Yeah, and it's just as warm in Mississippi (or the Midwest) as it is in California...

Ever lived in Fresno? Bakersfield? Needles?

There is this myth that California is the land of 70-degree summers. Sure, in some parts of the state. From personal experience, Redding is bloody hot in the summer.

So $1.80 is half of $2.25? that is, afterall, the gist of the post you're defending. I guess I missed that day in math class.

Well, in terms of commuter time, 25 counties in California (nearly half of all state counties) ranked in the Top 250 nationwide, and nearly every one of these counties features very high costs of living. Not a single Mississippi county is listed. So maybe it isn't just about gas prices?

http://www.census.gov/acs/www/Products/Ranking/2002/R04T050.htm

 

[JohnDubYa]

Fair enough. But the cost of gasoline and commute time should factor into the cost of living, should it not?

I thought you went to bed?