# Reduction in consumption of fossil fuels

Pengwuino
Gold Member
haha oh god, i did a double stupid move. I didnt know what the heck a raptor was so i go to dictionary.com and i typed into the box "What the hell is a raptor" instead of just putting "raptor".

So 700 watts at 28mph... sounds about the kind of winds you may get out there.. hmm... time to calculate :D

Ill say you can resell the power at $.07 per kwh because im sure they'll only give you at the most, 1/2 of what they sell the power at... Hmm wait a second... i have no idea what kind of data id be looking at here haha. I dont know if winds kick up where my godfather lives for 5 hours a day or 5 minutes a day... what kind of devices could i use to measure that kind of information for a few weeks? Last edited: Pattylou, Yes I am from the Netherlands :) Were you aware that a lot of people here in the netherlands already use bikes to go to a lot of places? It's a very normal mode of transport here. We even have special lanes on roads and next to them for cyclists. With their own special trafficlights and crossovers! I must be honest though and admit that I don't see much in the use of windturbines. The Netherlands is not an especially windy country nor is it quite sunny enough to make effiecient use of solar panels. Tidal energy is nice but that requires large underwater turbines which arent exactly good for sea life... My vote is still on nuclear power. With proper management and safety it's the perfect solution! How rapidly money is lost through homepower production Pengwuino said: Ill say you can resell the power at$.07 per kwh
It costs about ten times as much to produce homepower as one would typically receive from selling it to a power company at retail prices.

Hi Patty,

I agree that sorting out our own domestic energy solutions is a good idea. But as I say, even in the rich world it's still costly. I'm only on £15k a year so the £7k solar panels would cost is a BIG investment. And wind turbines are out for me. I live in high density 'terraced housing' in the north of England.

Hi Penguino,

Hope you don't mind me replying in the same post. :)

Having been sceptical of the climate change issue (reasonably so I hope) I've found that much of my scepticism has at least been exacerbated by those with a vested industry twisting the science. In my opinion it is the fear of being targeted by these lobbyists that has skewed and polarised the debate. As you can gather I'm against Kyoto as it's not going to have a real effect. Had we had a fair and open debate without the interference of the fuel industry lobbyists then perhaps the issue would not have been thrust into the hands of their opponents, the Greens. IMHO it's this polarisation that has lead to the adoption of pipe-dream stuf like Kyoto. The US admin have finally come round to what I agree with (but not I suspect for quite the same reasons), viewing climate science as an investment to help us deal with a change that really is more of a challenge than a threat.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
It costs about ten times as much to produce homepower as one would typically receive from selling it to a power company at retail prices.
hah so what.. expect to sell it at $0.007/kwh? Pengwuino said: so [...] expect to sell it at$0.007/kwh?
No, at typical retail prices such as $0.07/kwh. Pengwuino Gold Member So... it'll cost$.70 to produce it? How does that work... it seems like a 1 time cost.

brewnog
Gold Member
patty said:
Recycling food scraps? By the city?? Wow!
Not quite, but they give us all our own composting bins, as well as separate recycling bins for glass, paper etc.

Cobblers, where are you from mate? Welcome to the North England crew, there are 4 of us now!

How to estimate homepower unit production costs

Pengwuino said:
So... it'll cost $.70 to produce it? How does that work... it seems like a 1 time cost. physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=553857&highlight=solar#post553857 physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=549784&highlight=solar#post549784 physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=510640&highlight=solar#post510640 If a given homepower system costs$30,000, and 30 years of 5% compounded annual interest is $100,000, the annual cost would be at least$130,000 / 30 years = $4,333.33. Add a few dollars of maintenance, repair and insurance (even if you don't discretely buy insurance, you are essentially acting as your own insurer and hence still incur insurance costs; the same goes for loans -- if you do not take out a loan, you are essentially lending the money to yourself and hence incur opportunity costs equal to the prevailing interest rate) each year and it adds up to$5,000 per year of ownership costs. If that system provides 6,250 kwh per year of electrical energy (an average of 520.83 kwh per month), that would work out to a unit cost of 80 cents per kwh.

For more homepower energy calculations, see:
http://www.homepower.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Know_Nukes

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Nuclear power is the only 0-emission energy source that can scale up to meet
the demands of the globe. There are no others.

I have not changed my energy consumption habbits, execpt for this: my
electrical supplier was changed away from one that would not use nuclear
power to one that does. This is better for the environment and cheaper
for me.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
Nuclear power does have an emission in a way. Nuclear waste is the "emission" if thats what you want to call it. Although its not constant like other methods, its still there in the end.

And where do you live? I wish i could change suppliers haha.

Pengwuino
Gold Member
If a given homepower system costs $30,000, and 30 years of 5% compunded annual interest is$100,000 the annual cost would be at least $130,000 / 30 years =$4,333.33. Add a few dollars of maintenance, repair and insurance (even if you don't discretely buy insurance, you are essentially acting as your own insurer and hence still incur insurance costs; the same goes for loans -- if you do not take out a loan, you are essentially lending the money to yourself and hence incur opportunity costs equal to the prevailing interest rate) each year and it adds up to $5,000 per year of ownership costs. If that system provides 6,250 kwh per year of electrical energy (an average of 520.83 kwh per month), that would work out to a unit cost of 80 cents per kwh. Whats that? Andre said: The main driver for oil prizes going up right now is -would you believe it- insufficient refinery capacity. However windmill power in the Netherlands is three times more expensive. That effects refined output prices in the US, but the main driver of crude prices (per barrel) are China, India and the other rapidly developing nations, and this is not likely to change. The law of supply, demand and price is still valid. KM Pengwuino said: hitssquad said: and 30 years of 5% compunded annual interest is$100,000
Whats that?
Compound interest.
moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm

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Inputs

Current Principal: $30,000.00 Annual Addition:$ 0.00
Years to grow: 30
Interest Rate: 5 %
Compound interest 1 time(s) annually

Results

Future Value: $129,658.27 -- Pengwuino Gold Member You mean for a loan??? Oh i was figuring to buy it outright. Nothing is very economical when you need a loan for it :P What kind of figures are we looken at if you buy it outright. The meaning of opportunity cost Pengwuino said: You mean for a loan? No. I meant that to buy anything, one must pay interest whether one borrows the money or not — which is what I wrote. Pengwuino said: i was figuring to buy it outright. hitssquad said: (even if you don't discretely buy insurance, you are essentially acting as your own insurer and hence still incur insurance costs; the same goes for loans -- if you do not take out a loan, you are essentially lending the money to yourself and hence incur opportunity costs equal to the prevailing interest rate) Pengwuino said: Nothing is very economical when you need a loan for it It is not possible to purchase anything without at least lending yourself money equivalent to the purchase price. Pengwuino said: What kind of figures are we looken at if you buy it outright. The figures that I quoted. Pengwuino Gold Member Oh so we're adding in opportunity cost... hmm... But what about re-selling the land and turbines afterwards eh eh? . But more importantly, this begs the question.... how do wind farms do it?? Is it just a case where they can better invest their money elsewhere? Pengwuino said: how do wind farms do it? They get special tax credits that make it profitable. Where the tax credits are not sufficient for wind-power investors to make a profit, wind farm are generally not put up. Also, some power ulitities are charging special rates for wind and solar power. If someone wants to pay more, then the product, naturally, can be more expensive. Also, large power plants are naturally more economical than small power plants. If you are attempting to produce some given thing on a small scale, it tends to be more expensive than the same item produced by a large factory. Last edited: Pengwuino Gold Member hmm.. wonder hwat kinda tax incentives there are where my godfather lives... Pengwuino said: wonder hwat kinda tax incentives there are where my godfather lives. I was referring to tax credits for major industrial ventures, not for homepower. Pengwuino Gold Member Well i was thinken about a commercial windfarm... just not very big at all. Maybe 3 or 4 of those turbines you used in your example. A new renewable is being (attempted) develloped in the Netherlands. Fresh water - Salt water boundaries. If you put several membranen between the two, the osmosis of the different salty ions runs at different speed, creating a slight electrical potential in the water containers. So if you have a river mouth, you're in business. The only problem is that a bit of power plant requires many square miles with container$ each of them with thousands of membrane$. So, the challenge is to manage the costs. But compared to wind and solar energy, most rivers always flow Pengwuino said: Well i was thinken about a commercial windfarm... just not very big at all. Maybe 3 or 4 of those turbines you used in your example. Those are homepower turbines. The largest are rated at only a few kilowatts. The bigger the turbine, the more efficient it is. State of the art commercial windpower turbines are now 390 feet in diameter and are rated at 5 megawatts. lm.dk/UK/Home/default.htm Pengwuino Gold Member hitssquad said: Those are homepower turbines. The largest are rated at only a few kilowatts. The bigger the turbine, the more efficient it is. State of the art commercial windpower turbines are now 390 feet in diameter and are rated at 5 megawatts. lm.dk/UK/Home/default.htm What are we looken at for a$150,000 investment? I'm gonna look around to see what kinda turbines we're talken about for that price.

I remember having this discussion with one of my professors... why it cost like $5 million for one of those big ol turbines that get a few megawatts of power. Even he was like "well... there pretty big.... but i still am not sure why it would cost so much". Are the electronics really... impressive? hehe ooo check this out http://www.town.ipswich.ma.us/ub/wind/Ipswich%20Report.pdf [Broken]$750,000 installation cost and only \$450,000 made after 10 years after including maintanence costs and such without factoring in your opportunity cost. And its in massachussettes and according to another website, they only pay about 7 cents/kwh. Heck in California, we pay about 14 cents so i bet these figures are muuuuch better here.

hahaha oh man, i just heard the funniest response ever on the news. Some women is being interviewed about disneylands new semi-fingerprinting ID system and she was asked this question and she goes "Devilspeak!"

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If you have a lot of cash why don't you just build a few simple wind generators yourself? Darrius mills are simple to make and kind of foolproof :) (They look awsome too :D)

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