Reduction in consumption of fossil fuels

[hitssquad]

so [...] expect to sell it at $0.007/kwh?

No, at typical retail prices such as $0.07/kwh.

 

[Pengwuino]

So... it'll cost $.70 to produce it? How does that work... it seems like a 1 time cost.

 

[brewnog]

Recycling food scraps? By the city?? Wow!

Not quite, but they give us all our own composting bins, as well as separate recycling bins for glass, paper etc.


Cobblers, where are you from mate? Welcome to the North England crew, there are 4 of us now!

 

[hitssquad]

How to estimate homepower unit production costs

So... it'll cost $.70 to produce it? How does that work... it seems like a 1 time cost.

physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=553857&highlight=solar#post553857

physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=549784&highlight=solar#post549784

physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=510640&highlight=solar#post510640

If a given homepower system costs $30,000, and 30 years of 5% compounded annual interest is $100,000, the annual cost would be at least $130,000 / 30 years = $4,333.33. Add a few dollars of maintenance, repair and insurance (even if you don't discretely buy insurance, you are essentially acting as your own insurer and hence still incur insurance costs; the same goes for loans -- if you do not take out a loan, you are essentially lending the money to yourself and hence incur opportunity costs equal to the prevailing interest rate) each year and it adds up to $5,000 per year of ownership costs. If that system provides 6,250 kwh per year of electrical energy (an average of 520.83 kwh per month), that would work out to a unit cost of 80 cents per kwh.


For more homepower energy calculations, see:
http://www.homepower.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Know_Nukes

 

[Antiphon]

Nuclear power is the only 0-emission energy source that can scale up to meet
the demands of the globe. There are no others.

I have not changed my energy consumption habbits, execpt for this: my
electrical supplier was changed away from one that would not use nuclear
power to one that does. This is better for the environment and cheaper
for me.

 

[Pengwuino]

Nuclear power does have an emission in a way. Nuclear waste is the "emission" if that's what you want to call it. Although its not constant like other methods, its still there in the end.

And where do you live? I wish i could change suppliers haha.

 

[Pengwuino]

If a given homepower system costs $30,000, and 30 years of 5% compunded annual interest is $100,000 the annual cost would be at least $130,000 / 30 years = $4,333.33. Add a few dollars of maintenance, repair and insurance (even if you don't discretely buy insurance, you are essentially acting as your own insurer and hence still incur insurance costs; the same goes for loans -- if you do not take out a loan, you are essentially lending the money to yourself and hence incur opportunity costs equal to the prevailing interest rate) each year and it adds up to $5,000 per year of ownership costs. If that system provides 6,250 kwh per year of electrical energy (an average of 520.83 kwh per month), that would work out to a unit cost of 80 cents per kwh.

Whats that?

 

[Kenneth Mann]

The main driver for oil prizes going up right now is -would you believe it- insufficient refinery capacity. However windmill power in the Netherlands is three times more expensive.

That effects refined output prices in the US, but the main driver of crude prices (per barrel) are China, India and the other rapidly developing nations, and this is not likely to change. The law of supply, demand and price is still valid.

KM

 

[hitssquad]

and 30 years of 5% compunded annual interest is $100,000

Whats that?

Compound interest.
moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm


--
Inputs

Current Principal: $ 30,000.00
Annual Addition: $ 0.00
Years to grow: 30
Interest Rate: 5 %
Compound interest 1 time(s) annually


Results

Future Value: $ 129,658.27
--

 

[Pengwuino]

You mean for a loan? Oh i was figuring to buy it outright. Nothing is very economical when you need a loan for it :P What kind of figures are we looken at if you buy it outright.

 

[hitssquad]

The meaning of opportunity cost

You mean for a loan?

No. I meant that to buy anything, one must pay interest whether one borrows the money or not — which is what I wrote.

i was figuring to buy it outright.

(even if you don't discretely buy insurance, you are essentially acting as your own insurer and hence still incur insurance costs; the same goes for loans -- if you do not take out a loan, you are essentially lending the money to yourself and hence incur opportunity costs equal to the prevailing interest rate)

Nothing is very economical when you need a loan for it

It is not possible to purchase anything without at least lending yourself money equivalent to the purchase price.

What kind of figures are we looken at if you buy it outright.

The figures that I quoted.

 

[Pengwuino]

Oh so we're adding in opportunity cost... hmm... But what about re-selling the land and turbines afterwards eh eh? .

But more importantly, this begs the question... how do wind farms do it?? Is it just a case where they can better invest their money elsewhere?

 

[hitssquad]

how do wind farms do it?

They get special tax credits that make it profitable. Where the tax credits are not sufficient for wind-power investors to make a profit, wind farm are generally not put up.

Also, some power ulitities are charging special rates for wind and solar power. If someone wants to pay more, then the product, naturally, can be more expensive.

Also, large power plants are naturally more economical than small power plants. If you are attempting to produce some given thing on a small scale, it tends to be more expensive than the same item produced by a large factory.

 

[Pengwuino]

hmm.. wonder hwat kinda tax incentives there are where my godfather lives...

 

[hitssquad]

wonder hwat kinda tax incentives there are where my godfather lives.

I was referring to tax credits for major industrial ventures, not for homepower.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well i was thinken about a commercial windfarm... just not very big at all. Maybe 3 or 4 of those turbines you used in your example.

 

[Andre]

A new renewable is being (attempted) develloped in the Netherlands. Fresh water - Salt water boundaries. If you put several membranen between the two, the osmosis of the different salty ions runs at different speed, creating a slight electrical potential in the water containers. So if you have a river mouth, you're in business. The only problem is that a bit of power plant requires many square miles with container$ each of them with thousands of membrane$. So, the challenge is to manage the costs.

But compared to wind and solar energy, most rivers always flow

 

[hitssquad]

Well i was thinken about a commercial windfarm... just not very big at all. Maybe 3 or 4 of those turbines you used in your example.

Those are homepower turbines. The largest are rated at only a few kilowatts. The bigger the turbine, the more efficient it is. State of the art commercial windpower turbines are now 390 feet in diameter and are rated at 5 megawatts.
lm.dk/UK/Home/default.htm

 

[Pengwuino]

Those are homepower turbines. The largest are rated at only a few kilowatts. The bigger the turbine, the more efficient it is. State of the art commercial windpower turbines are now 390 feet in diameter and are rated at 5 megawatts.
lm.dk/UK/Home/default.htm

What are we looken at for a $150,000 investment? I'm going to look around to see what kinda turbines we're talken about for that price.

I remember having this discussion with one of my professors... why it cost like $5 million for one of those big ol turbines that get a few megawatts of power. Even he was like "well... there pretty big... but i still am not sure why it would cost so much". Are the electronics really... impressive? hehe

ooo check this out

http://www.town.ipswich.ma.us/ub/wind/Ipswich%20Report.pdf

$750,000 installation cost and only $450,000 made after 10 years after including maintanence costs and such without factoring in your opportunity cost. And its in massachussettes and according to another website, they only pay about 7 cents/kwh. Heck in California, we pay about 14 cents so i bet these figures are muuuuch better here.


hahaha oh man, i just heard the funniest response ever on the news. Some women is being interviewed about disneylands new semi-fingerprinting ID system and she was asked this question and she goes "Devilspeak!"

 

[Nerro]

If you have a lot of cash why don't you just build a few simple wind generators yourself? Darrius mills are simple to make and kind of foolproof :) (They look awsome too :D)

 

[Pengwuino]

If you have a lot of cash why don't you just build a few simple wind generators yourself? Darrius mills are simple to make and kind of foolproof :) (They look awsome too :D)

Oh god, i shoudl shoudlnt i... how complicated would it be. I am no electrician :(

This would totally be a good use of my time

 

[hitssquad]

My godfather's son owns a few acres and he's doing nothing with em.

Few areas of the United States offer the wind conditions that wind power investors typically look for. ~99% of the geographical United States would be rejected for wind investment on this basis. You might want to do some reading on this here:
http://www.homepower.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Know_Nukes

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah we live in a valley and its about smack dab in the middle so there's probably nowhere near enough wind to make any power.. but sure would be fun to build something for my house :D

 

[juju]

Hi,

I heard an interview a few months back, where a Texas wind power investor was asked why this type of investment.

His answer was that he could make money on such an investment and wasn't doing it for environmental reasons.

juju

 

[Pengwuino]

haha i looked at a compilation of wind data for the US and my city is basically at the 0 level... beautiful.

 

[pattylou]

Pengwuino, dude, you're in california. Are you a homeowner? I'm telling you, Solar. The governator wants us all on solar and the "million solar roofs" (google it) is going to pass.

Rebates for homeowners to put on solar already exists. They might get better with this initiative.

You can go small, or big. I mean, you can get a do-it-yourself kit at costco for some basic energy for minor needs. Look into it! You just seem so keen on wind, but you might be better placed to go with solar.

 

[Pengwuino]

I was feeling really "build it yourself" lately so that's why i was into the wind thing. But after looking at that damn graph, wind is out of the question. If we did go solar, we'd want at least 2kwh production capabilities since we use electricity like crazy so we'd probably have something professionally installed. Hopefully a government rebate will make the cost look more like a new car instead of a new house haha.

Ooo looks like this mollion solar thingy bill got through committee 2 weeks ago. Hope these dang democrats don't get in the way of things again.

These subsidies better be good because I am calculating that it would take at least 10-20 years before the stupid thing pays itself off.

 

[pattylou]

The CostCo kits are do-it-yourself; I don't know what you can get from them... I think they are a few hundred bucks apiece so they'd only suply a small amount of energy for you.

Democrats won't oppose environmental legislation. It's the dang republicans that you have to look out for.

 

[Pengwuino]

The CostCo kits are do-it-yourself; I don't know what you can get from them... I think they are a few hundred bucks apiece so they'd only suply a small amount of energy for you.

Democrats won't oppose environmental legislation. It's the dang republicans that you have to look out for.

Democrats are full of it. They tried to put a wind farm off of... one of hte 'Santa' cities and the rich hollywood crowd complained that it would screw up their view of the sunset so it was never built. Plus there mad that arnold is taking away their money so they are continually blocking crap. We have to have a special election because of them refusing to give up their little pet programs.

I don't want to get the Costco kit if its less bang for the buck, we need 2+ kwh for it to be even worth it.

 

[hitssquad]

we need 2+ kwh for it to be even worth it.

A kilowatt-hour (kwh) is a unit of energy, Pengwuino.