Reference point of geocentric lunar latitude?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reference point for geocentric lunar longitude in relation to ecliptic coordinate systems. Participants explore the implications of using different reference points, such as the vernal equinox and the positions of the Earth and Moon, in the context of developing a software display for celestial positions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on what 0 degrees of geocentric longitude references, questioning if it points to the vernal equinox or another point.
  • Another participant suggests that 0 degrees longitude could refer to Greenwich, England, or potentially an observatory in Paris, France, depending on historical context.
  • A later reply confirms that in an ecliptic coordinate system, 0 degrees does point to the vernal equinox, but raises the need to determine the Earth's position in this system.
  • One participant explains that in a geocentric ecliptic coordinate system, the Earth is at the center, making it nonsensical to assign it a longitude.
  • Another participant describes their project to create a software display showing the positions of the Moon and Earth relative to the Sun, indicating the need for accurate positioning based on the ecliptic coordinate system.
  • Discussion includes suggestions on how to orient the display, such as aligning it with the northern vernal equinox or the autumn equinox.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the reference points for geocentric longitude and how to position the Earth in relation to the Moon and Sun, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a consensus.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions of coordinate systems and the implications of using different reference points for celestial positioning.

jwberck
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I'm attempting to use an algorithm translated from Jean Meeus: Astronomical Algorithms. The algorithm in question finds a geocentric position of the moon given a certain day. I have been able to find the geocentric longitude of the moon, but I don't know what this longitude is in reference to. What would 0 degrees of longitude point to? Would it be the vernal equinox point like heliocentric systems or something else?

Thanks!

EDIT: I meant longitude, not latitude
 
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http://www.dictionary.com/browse/geocentric-longitude

Is that enough? I think it is geometry from there.

0 degrees longitude would probably point to an observatory in Greenwich England. If it is an old French book it might point to the observatory near Paris France. There was a big argument about this back in the day. The United States butted in and decided to side with the Brits in 1884.
 
My bad, I think I need to be more specific. I'm referring to an ecliptic coordinate system found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecliptic_coordinate_system . From this page I think 0 degrees would be the vernal exquinox. However, now I need to know the position of the Earth in this system as well... anyone have an idea of how to calculate that? I can't find it in Astronomical Algorithms.
 
jwberck said:
From this page I think 0 degrees would be the vernal exquinox.
Yes, that's the primary direction, just as with the heliocentric system. Only pointing the other way (from Earth to Sun, rather than Sun to Earth)
jwberck said:
However, now I need to know the position of the Earth in this system as well... anyone have an idea of how to calculate that?
You won't be able to do that, since, true to its name, in the geocentric ecliptic coordinate system Earth is at the centre of the sphere of coordinates projected onto the sky. It's like asking what is the longitude of the north pole.
But I don't understand why would you need that for, so there's likely still some misunderstanding here.
 
I'll elaborate on what I'm working on to show you what the problem is. I'm building a software display that shows the actual position of the moon and Earth in relation to the sun from a top down 2d perspective of the ecliptic plane. So I've found the position of the moon in relation to the Earth using a geocentric ecliptic system and I know that the 0 degree point of this system points towards the vernal equinox. Now I need to figure out how to have the Earth in the correct position using a heliocentric ecliptic coordinate system. Currently the top of the display represents January 1st UTC and makes one revolution in one year. I'm thinking the top needs to be the date of the march or September equinox for everything to be positioned realistically in relation to the sun assuming 0 degrees in the moons system points towards the top of the display. This is the sort of thing I'm building, but with actual positioning. http://bl.ocks.org/clayzermk1/9142407
 
The position of the Earth during the (northern)vernal equinox in the heliocentric system is the opposite of the position of the Sun in the geocentric system at the same moment in time.
Whether you make that the top of the animation or somewhere else, it doesn't matter. You can still count from 1st Jan at 12 o'clock, and just make sure that the direction to the 0 point of the coordinate system you're using for placement of the Moon points towards the Sun on 20th March (or whatever it falls on).

So, if
jwberck said:
assuming 0 degrees in the moons system points towards the top of the display
means the 0 (=primary) direction of the geocentric system, and you want to keep the orientation, then the Earth should be placed at the bottom of the display (which would mark 20th March of this year), so that it correctly points towards the Sun during the northern vernal equinox.
You can then rotate the whole thing to make 12 o'clock wherever you want.

Or keep everything as it is, just change 12 o'clock to the autumn equinox instead of 1st Jan.
 
Last edited:
I got it working correctly, thank you all for your help!
 

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