Relativistic addition question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the relativistic addition of velocities, specifically regarding the scenario where observer A measures two objects, B and C, moving towards each other at 0.8c. Participants explore the implications of these measurements on the perceived impact and relative velocities in different reference frames, addressing concepts such as separation rate and relative velocity in the context of special relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that in observer A's frame, the separation rate between B and C appears to grow at 1.6c, while emphasizing that no individual speed exceeds c.
  • Others discuss the relativistic addition of velocities, noting that the relative velocity of B as measured by C cannot be naively calculated due to the effects of time dilation and length contraction.
  • A participant highlights the distinction between "separation rate" and "relative velocity," suggesting that these concepts behave differently under relativity.
  • Some argue that while the closing speed may appear greater than c in A's frame, this does not imply that any object's speed exceeds c.
  • There is a discussion about how the impact energy and force of the collision would be perceived differently in various frames, with some participants questioning how the same force can be explained across different reference frames.
  • Participants mention that the calculations of kinetic energy before and after the collision differ depending on the reference frame used, yet the total momentum change remains consistent.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the principles of relativistic velocity addition and the distinction between separation rate and relative velocity. However, there are competing views regarding the implications of these concepts on the perceived impact and energy of collisions, leading to unresolved questions about how force and damage are assessed across different frames.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the calculations depend on assumptions about the elasticity of materials involved in the collision and the specific reference frame chosen for analysis. There are also unresolved mathematical steps regarding the energy and momentum changes during the collision.

  • #31
And now I'm thinking I was overthinking this, and that it should just be ##\phi## every time:

## \vec f = \dfrac{m}{\cosh{\phi}} \, \dfrac{d}{d \tau} \left( \sinh{\phi} \, \hat{v} \right) = m \left( \dfrac{d \phi}{d \tau} \hat{v} + v \dfrac{d \hat{v}}{d \tau}
\right).##

## \vec f_{\parallel \vec v} = m \left[ \left( \dfrac{d \phi}{d \tau} \hat{v} \right)_{\parallel \vec v} + \left( v \dfrac{d \hat{v}}{d \tau} \right)_{\parallel \vec v} \right]##

## \vec f_{\parallel \vec v} = m \left( \dfrac{d \phi}{d \tau} \hat{v} + \vec 0 \right), ##

so:

##f_{\parallel \vec v} = m \dfrac{d \phi}{d \tau},##

invariant under a boost in the ##\pm \hat{v}## direction (though in general ##\hat{v}## may rotate as the force is applied).

If that's right, then I guess I was getting myself confused earlier by the fact that ##\Delta \phi## isn't in the ##\pm \hat{v}## direction. That felt off (still kind of does).
 
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  • #32
SiennaTheGr8 said:
If that's right, then I guess I was getting myself confused earlier by the fact that ##\Delta \phi## isn't in the ##\pm \hat{v}## direction. That felt off (still kind of does).

And now I'm very confident that it's right. The key point is that ##\vec v## is (at least) momentarily parallel to the boost axis, and so the infinitesimal ##d \phi## is indeed invariant under a collinear boost. Nothing feels off anymore, and I was wrong to bring the component ##\phi_{\parallel \vec v}## into this at all.

(Sorry if I've derailed the thread. That's my last word on this unless someone responds.)
 

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