Am I understanding the concept of proper frame of reference?

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    Special relativity
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a proper frame of reference in the context of special relativity, particularly focusing on the relationship between stationary and moving inertial frames. Participants explore the implications of time dilation and the definitions surrounding proper reference frames, including the distinction between accelerated and inertial observers.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a light clock and derives equations relating to time dilation in different reference frames, suggesting that time between ticks is greater in a moving frame compared to the proper frame.
  • Another participant questions whether the original poster is truly addressing the concept of a proper reference frame or merely the relationship between inertial frames.
  • Several participants reference a textbook and Wikipedia article to clarify definitions of proper reference frames, noting that these frames are typically associated with accelerated observers.
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of "proper" in this context, with some participants suggesting it refers to a specific kind of frame while others argue about the implications of acceleration.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the definitions and seeks clarification on the meaning of "proper," indicating that their understanding is still developing.
  • Another participant emphasizes that proper reference frames can be defined for both accelerated and inertial observers, but the discussion remains focused on the definitions provided in the referenced materials.
  • There is a debate about whether a proper frame can be associated with an inertial observer and how this relates to the definitions provided in the Wikipedia article.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definitions and implications of proper reference frames, with multiple competing views remaining regarding the relationship between accelerated and inertial observers.

Contextual Notes

Some definitions and assumptions are debated, particularly regarding the nature of proper reference frames and their applicability to different types of observers. The discussion highlights the complexity of these concepts without resolving the ambiguities present in the definitions.

  • #31
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure I see this implication, since the section that discusses this for curved spacetime (13.6) refers to Exercise 6.8 which defines an accelerated rotating frame for flat spacetime, and says that this section will do the same for curved spacetime. There is no reference anywhere that I can see for a use of the term "proper reference frame" to describe a standard inertial frame in flat spacetime.

That said, I agree that zero acceleration and zero rotation can be plugged into the equations as a special case, and yield a standard inertial frame (in curved spacetime, a local inertial frame), and that MTW does include that special case.
I found an explicit statement in this section of MTW (13.6 bottom of p. 331 in my edition) that makes clear that they have the meaning I claim:

" In the case of zero acceleration and zero rotation, (..), the observer's proper reference frame reduces to a local Lorentz frame (...) all along his geodesic world line!"
 
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  • #32
I concur with Pallen's observations. MTW goes into the explicit geometric details of how to construct a proper frame of reference. And I agree one can get an inertial proper frame by setting the acaceleration and rotation to zero - Pallen has quoted the relevant section of MTW on this so perhaps this observation is a bit redundant.

It appears to me that the key concept that makes a frame a "proper frame" of reference are that we start with the worldline of some "observer". Then we label the time coordinate of any event on this worldline of the "observer" with the proper time of said event along this worldline. Additionally, we transport this time coordinates away from the worldine, to points that are not on the worldine of the observer, via geodesics curves that are orthogonal (in the space-time sense) to the worldline of the observer. This is a quick summary of the MTW's longer explanation.

Fermi normal coordinates are a specific and more restrictive example of how one can construct a "proper" reference frame".

Once upon a time I was motivated by this section of MTW to construct such "proper" coordinates for an observer on a "sliding block" which slid on the floor of Einstein's elevator. I chose not to fermi-walker transport the basis vectors, so the resulting frame was both accelerated and rotating, and thus the coordinates I came up with were not Fermi normal coordinates.

In the sliding block example, other people choose and preferred different coordinates that used a different way to define time of events not on the worldline of the observer.

I don't think we should read too much into the use of the word "proper" than as a reference to the use of "proper time" in the coordinate construction. There are a lot of different ways one might assign coordinates in General Relativity which is sort of the whole point of the theory, the amount of freedom it gives one to choose smooth coordinates.
 
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  • #33
FactChecker said:
The Twin Paradox is one example. The traveling twin can be in inertial reference frames for much of his departure and return trips. I
In SR, proper time of the object in motion with velocity v(t) is given by
$$\tau = \int_0^T \sqrt{1-\frac{v(t)^2}{c^2}}dt$$
where once $$\tau = T = 0$$ for a common event.

In the similar way, proper frame of reference, PFR, of the object couuld be made of succesive (instantaneous and local) IFRs as said for astronaut twin above but in approximation, e.g., forgetting about his g experience during U-turn.

One of my concerns is about the rotation of xyz axis during the motion because some combinations of Lorentz transfomation generate rotation.
 
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  • #34
anuttarasammyak said:
proper frame of reference, PFR, of the object couuld be made of succesive (instantaneous and local) IFRs as said for astronaut twin above but in approximation, e.g., forgetting about his g experience during U-turn.
That's not how the proper frame of reference of an accelerated observer is defined in any of the references that have been given. The part I've bolded above is the part that is not in all those references; an accelerated proper frame of reference as defined there can handle "g experience" of arbitrary acceleration, no "approximation" to avoid it is needed. The main limitation of the proper frame of reference of an accelerated observer is that it can only cover a limited region around the worldline of the observer; the greater the proper acceleration of the observer, the more limited the region. So at the "U-turn" in the standard twin paradox, the proper frame of reference of the traveling twin would only be able to cover a very narrow region around that twin's worldline.
 

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