Russell's Paradox and the Excluded-Middle reasoning

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The discussion centers on Russell's Paradox and its implications within excluded-middle reasoning. It argues that tautologies like "x = x" do not lead to new information through recursion, suggesting that the paradox arises from meaningless questions such as "x is not x." The participants contend that the existence of sets is not dependent on their properties, and therefore, the paradox does not hold in this logical framework. The conversation also touches on the distinction between false statements and meaningless ones, asserting that the paradox can be avoided by rejecting the law of excluded middle or by adopting a different set theory approach. Ultimately, the conclusion is that Russell's Paradox is rendered meaningless when viewed through this lens.
  • #91
Matt Grime said:
none of the things you suggest mathematics must be, or do, is informed, lama/doron/shmesh/etc, and just demonstrates your complete lack of understanding, and you total ignorance of the world you claim to talk about. Are you even aware of topoi where the 'excluded middle' fails to be true? No, you aren't. Mathematics is far richer than you can even begin to understand, and the repeated demonstrations of your ignorance of it are not particulalry endearining.

You are also inconsitent in the extreme. One need only look at you belief in dichotomic options to see that.
There is a little problem here dear Matt.

You did not show us that you understand my ideas about Math.

Please also read my answer to master coda.

master coda said:
For example you talk about a set as if it is something that can be made to go away; as if by changing the properties of the set, you somehow make the original abstraction disappear.
So, you do not understand the idea of the relative/absolute system.

In an excluded-middle reasoning an absolute element (set, point, ...) can have simultaneously a one and only one unique name (identity).

And I do not mean to some variable symbols like 'a', 'A', 'b' , 'B' ... and so on.

The identity of an absolute element is its literal name like: point named 'pi', point named 'e',
point named '1', point named '0', the set of 'all_sets_that_do_not_contain_themselves' ... and so on.

So nothing disappears here.

A set which its literal name is 'all_sets_that_do_not_contain_themselves' cannot contain itself (in an excluded middle reasoning) exactly as some absolute point cannot have more than one literal name (in an excluded-middle reasoning).

Conclusion: Russel's Paradox cannot be defined in an excluded-middle reasoning.

Please read http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/No-Naive-Math.pdf (and all of its links) for better understanding.

I am waiting for your detailed remarks of my papers.

Thank you,

Lama
 
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  • #92
Lama said:
What I suggest is very simple:

The language of Mathematics...


A description is an abstract representation of a concrete physical instantiation.



Mathematics is a meta-language, highly abstract. A description contains the concrete physical instantiation in the abstract sense and the concrete object contains the description in the physical sense.


Here is the definition of "algorithm":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm


"Algorithm

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Broadly-defined, an algorithm is an interpretable, finite set of instructions for dealing with contingencies and accomplishing some task which can be anything that has a recognizable end-state, end-point, or result for all inputs. (contrast with heuristic). Algorithms often have steps that repeat (iterate) or require decisions (logic and comparison) until the task is completed."


DNA is an algorithm, a finite set of instructions, which can construct a carbon based life form.

The life form physically contains the DNA and the DNA contains the life form in an "abstract" sense.

At a fundamental level of existence, it is postulated that "nature" could be constructed of tiny strings, and those strings, loops, or branes, could even be constructed of string "bits".

These bits could encode information, analogous to the universe's "DNA"? A set of instructions built into the fabric of space/time and mass/energy?


"If, then, it is true that the axiomatic basis of theoretical physics cannot be extracted from experience but must be freely invented, can we ever hope to find the right way? I answer without hesitation that there is, in my opinion, a right way, and that we are capable of finding it. I hold it true that pure thought can grasp reality, as the ancients dreamed." (Albert Einstein, 1954)

At the most fundamental length scales, the fundamental paticles, called "strings", could be constructed of even more basic units i.e. bits? analogous to a computer code?

1010100010...etc.

Universal algorithms?


Some interesting ideas on "string bits":

http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9607/9607183.pdf

http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/9707/9707048.pdf


Introduction

In string-bit models, string is viewed as a polymer molecule, a bound system of point-like constituents which enjoy a Galilei invariant dynamics. This can be consistent with Poincar´e invariant string, because the Galilei invariance of string-bit dynamics is precisely that of the transverse space of light-cone quantization. If the string-bit description of string is correct, ordinary nonrelativistic many-body quantum mechanics is the appropriate framework for string dynamics. Of course, for superstring-bits, this quantum mechanics must be made supersymmetric.


According to string theory, the uncertainty in position is given by:

Dx < h/Dp + C*Dp

Which points towards a type of "discrete" spacetime?


A metric space has distance function r(x,y), characterized by involvement with the real numbers, R, such that the metric space and R are embedded simultaneously in the full structure of manifold M. A topological space consists of sets of points which are defined[in this case] to be the intersections of cotangent bundles.


If space is *quantized* yet also continuous, then it too, has the property called "wave-particle" duality. If space consists of indivisible units, then a measurement of space means that Fermat's last theorem holds, for it.

According to the Pythagorean theorem:

x^2 + y^2 = z^2

All possible integer solutions are then rerpresented as:

[a^2 - b^2]^2 + [2ab]^2 = [a^2 + b^2]^2

a^4 -2(ab)^2 + b^4 + 4(ab)^2 =

a^4 + 2(ab)^2 + b^4 = [a^2 + b^2]^2




all odd numbers can be represented as:

[a^2 - b^2] or Z^p - Y^p

if Y is an "even" natural n and Z is odd, same for a and b .

Fermat's last theorem, for integers a,b,Z,Y,p:

[a^2 - b^2]^p + Y^p = Z^p

[a^2 - b^2]^p = Z^p - Y^p

a^2 - b^2 = [Z^p - Y^p]^[1/p]

When Z^p - Y^p is a prime number, it cannot have an integer root.

a^2 - b^2 is not an integer, for [Z^p - Y^p]^[1/p] , for a,b,Z,Y,p, unless p = 2.


To every set A and every condition S(x) there corresponds a set B whose elements are exactly those elements x of A for which S(x) holds. This is the axiom that leads to Russell's paradox. For if we let the condition S(x) be: not(x element of x), then B = {x in A such that x is not in x}. Is B a member of B? If it is, then it isn't; and if it isn't, then it is. Therefore B cannot be in A, meaning that nothing contains everything.

This means that relativity holds in the "topological" sense and T-duality is correct.

Quantum entities are described as probability distributions, which are attributes of an underlying phase space, where the properties-attributes such as "spin" and "charge" are not the attributes of individual particles, but they are universally distributive entities, being the attributes of a "coherent wave function". It is this wave-distribution property that then "decoheres" into the ostensible "wave function collapse", as waves become localized particles that are "in phase" creating standing-spherical-wave resonances, which are condensations of space itself. The continual collapse-condensation of space into matter-energy is the continual "change", i.e. the property called "time". The spherical waves, or probability distributions are represented by the Schrodinger wave function, "psi".


The information density of the universal system must be increasing. The increase of information density is analogous to a pressure gradient.

[density 1]--->[density 2]--->[density 3]---> ... --->[density n]


[<-[->[<-[-><-]->]<-]->]

Intersecting wavefronts = increasing density of spacelike slices

As the wavefronts intersect, it becomes a mathematical computation:

2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, ...2^n
 
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  • #93
master coda said:
For example you talk about a set as if it is something that can be made to go away; as if by changing the properties of the set, you somehow make the original abstraction disappear.
So, you do not understand the idea of the relative/absolute system.

In an excluded-middle reasoning an absolute element (set, point, ...) can have simultaneously a one and only one unique name (identity).

And I do not mean to some variable symbols like 'a', 'A', 'b' , 'B' ... and so on.

The identity of an absolute element is its literal name like: point named 'pi', point named 'e',
point named '1', point named '0', the set of 'all_sets_that_do_not_contain_themselves' ... and so on.

So nothing disappears here.

A set which its literal name is 'all_sets_that_do_not_contain_themselves' cannot contain itself (in an excluded middle reasoning) exactly as some absolute point that cannot have more than one literal name (in an excluded-middle reasoning).

Conclusion: Russel's Paradox cannot be defined in an excluded-middle reasoning.

Please read http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/No-Naive-Math.pdf (and all of its links) for better understanding.

I am waiting for your detailed remarks of my papers.

Thank you,

Lama
 
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  • #94
Dear Russell E. Rierson,

Can you simply say how you connect my idea of relative/absolute system to your interesting ideas?
 
  • #95
Lama said:
Dear Russell E. Rierson,

Can you simply say how you connect my idea of relative/absolute system to your interesting ideas?

In a word, "duality".
 
  • #96
Russell E. Rierson said:
In a word, "duality".
What is "duality" for you?
 
  • #97
Lama said:
What is "duality" for you?

The laws of physics become the laws of geometry. Certain invariants hold, which are analogous to the "absolutes". There are also analogous non-absolutes, or relational perspectives, on the surface of the geometry.
 
  • #98
Lama said:
What is "duality" for you?


Here is an article on symmetry and duality. It appears to be very interesting:

http://1omega.port5.com/articles/Sym_dual/SYM_DUAL.HTM
 
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  • #99
Dear Russell E. Rierson,

It is about the time to build our community, which is based on the "Duality" principle.

I have learned during the last 20 years that without a community support, no fundamentals can be changed in science.

Do you have any ideas?
 
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  • #100
Lama said:
Dear Russell E. Rierson,

It is about the time to build our community, which is based on the "Duality" principle.

I have learned during the last 20 years that without a community support, no fundamentals can be changed in science.

Do you have any ideas?

Duality, or possibly, a three valued logic as phoenix explains, solves russell's paradox
 
  • #101
Russell E. Rierson,

"Duality" principle is not necessarily a 2-valuad logic, when you examine it by an Included-Middle Logic.

Please read http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/No-Naive-Math.pdf (and all of its links) for better understanding.

I am waiting for your detailed remarks of my papers.

Thank you,

Lama
 
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  • #102
The simple principle of Duality is an Archimedean point
That will make a shift in the whole mathematics.

Moshek
 
  • #103
Lama said:
Russell E. Rierson,

"Duality" principle is not necessarily a 2-valuad logic, when you examine it by an Included-Middle Logic.

Please read http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/No-Naive-Math.pdf (and all of its links) for better understanding.

Lama

The number of fractions from zero to one, is equal to the number of "natural numbers", from zero to infinity.
 
  • #104
Russell E. Rierson said:
The number of fractions from zero to one, is equal to the number of "natural numbers", from zero to infinity.
Please give a detailed explanation.
 
  • #105
Lama said:
Please give a detailed explanation.

In your paper, you wrote that any segment, has the same magnitude as the entire real line.

I was trying to understand :biggrin:
 
  • #106
Let us add some more details.

Let us say that every unique name along the real line is represented by a single symbol.

In this case there is 'no room' for Cantor's diagonal method and we cannot conclude that there is a difference between the single symbols of the entire real line and the single symbols of the natural numbers.

But this is not correct because, when we ignore the fractal nature of the real line and care only about its magnitude, then in this case any unique symbol can be mapped only to itself.

In this case, the unique symbols that represent only the natural numbers cannot have the magnitude of the entire real line.

The mistake of standard Math point of view is: when it finds a 1-1 and onto between some set of infinitely many elements to some proper subset of it, it is not aware to the fact that it uses the fractal property of the number line.

If we aware to the simple fact that the magnitude of the number line is not depended on its fractal nature, then and only then we can clearly understand (by researching a one and only one arbitrary level of this fractal) that there cannot be any 1-1 and onto between some set of infinitely many unique symbols, to a proper subset of it.

Strictly speaking, the absolute/relative picture of the real-line is simpler and richer than the standard point of view.

Another important side effect here is that our simple intuitions are not forced to deal with weird states.
 
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  • #107
You had a mistake when you use the word mistake... for the regular way of thinking in mathematics. I think that what you are trying to do is to show us that there was some blind point and by see this point we can jump to a completely new dimension. I would call it the dimension of the observer.
a fundamental point that most of the physician are so missing by there modeling and equation attitude ( String theory etc.. ) which is still some Newton mathematics in and relatively Einstein universe. Strictly speaking you ( We ?) are talking about not Newtonian mathematics were symbol are object by themselves by the principle of duality. as a positive interpatation to Godel theorem.

Moshek :smile:
 
  • #108
Hi Moshek,

If you examine the meaning of the word 'mistake' you can find within it a combination of two words, which are the words 'miss' and 'take'.

In short, the word 'mistake' and your 'blind point' idea are actually the same.

I disagree with you about your dichotomy point of view of relative and absolute systems.

By my point of view the whole idea of duality is based on the interaction between absolute and relative systems.

Strictly speaking, my system is the interactions between Newton's reasoning and Einstein's reasoning.

In my opinion, no one of them alone can be a meaningful system.
 
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  • #109
Lama said:
If you examine the meaning of the word 'mistake' you can find within it a combination of two words, which are the words 'miss' and 'take'


ACtually, that isn't correct.

Mistake is old norse mis taka, meaning to take wrongly. Miss is dutch and comes from missen, meaning, well, miss
 
  • #110
Thank you dear Matt for the correction.

'Mis-' is mostly used as a negative prefix.

Please read also #91 and #106 , thank you.
 
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  • #111
Hi Doron ,

I don't think that the Euclidian mathematics have mistake in it. But i think that all the great knowledge that was develop make us today the opportunity to develop some new understanding that the logic is not anymore in the center of it. The duality principle is a very good new direction to do that. And your new definition to the concept of number is fundamental and beautiful.

It now only... a matter of creating the new language and community.

Moshe
 
  • #112
Thank you very much dear Moshek, I think that both of us are maybe the beginning of this new community.

I am working very hard to find more members.

Yours,

Lama
 
  • #114
Dear Doron:

Thank you for the update on your view about the Russel paradox.
It show in a very clear way that mathematics is a "only"... a language and not absolute true like Plato said many years ago.

I am glad to tell you that mathematics was change already dramatically few years ago in the direction that you are working.

I am really sad and sorry that almost nobody know or talk about it.

Yours
Moshe
:frown:
 
  • #115
Thank you moshek,

I add here some response from another forum on this subject:

y_feldblum (some person from another fourum) said:
Lama, the (I guess it is a) paper you linked to in your last post says absolutely nothing whatsoever about a new view. Russell's paradox is indeed a paradox, and anybody who does not accept paradoxes must consider flawed the method by which they are arrived at (and then find the flaw). Yes, the theory is flawed, if Russell can exploit it to form the paradox. No, it's not necessarily flawed, if Russell misused it to form the paradox.

Your "new point of view" is not a point of view; it is a rejection of another point of view, ostensibly because Russel exploited it to form the paradox. But the flaw you identify is not a flaw, and it is not the flaw that Russel actually exploited.
Dear y_feldblum,

Russell's paradox cannot be defined in an excluded-middle reasoning, because it dies before it is even borne.

In short, an element, which has no unique and well-defined self-identity, cannot be used to produce any paradox.

If you do not agree to what I wrote above, you have to demonstrate in a detailed way, how an element that has no self-identity can be used to produce a paradox in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system.

If you cannot do that, then you have no logical argument to be based on.

Also please be aware to the fact that the set that includes all (by using the word all we get a self reference of something to itself) of the elements that have no well-defined and unique identity, is nothing but a false statement in an excluded-middle logical reasoning, exactly as the statement
a = not_a is nothing but a false statement in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system.

In short, no false result can be used (or being exploit in your words) as a logical basis to produce a paradox in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system, or in other worlds: no false statement can be considered as a paradox in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system.

a is a if and only if it is not_a is not a paradox but a false statement, exactly as a is not_a is nothing but a false statement.

In other words: (a is a if and only if it is not_a) is (a is not_a).

Therefore Russell’s paradox cannot be defined in an excluded-middle logical reasoning, and this point of view is defiantly a new point of view on what is called “Russell’s Paradox”.
 
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  • #116
Any comments to post #115?
 
  • #117
On Russell’s First Paradox and The

Excluded-Middle Logical Reasoning





Doron Shadmi





Abstract


For more than 100 years the first paradox of Russell is considered as a problem in the foundations of what is called Naïve Set-Theory.

In this short paper we show that this paradox is based on elements that have no unique self-identity, and we can conclude that Russell's paradox cannot be more then a false statement in the framework of excluded-middle logical reasoning.

We also show that excluded-middle logical reasoning framework is a limited logical system.





Keywords: Unique self identity, Excluded-middle logical reasoning,

False statement, Limited logical system.​




Russell's first paradox by standard logical reasoning:

( http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox )

Consider the set M to be "The set of all sets that do not contain themselves as members". Formally: A is an element of M if and only if A is not an element of A. In the sense of Cantor, M is a well-defined set. Does it contain itself? If we assume that it does, it is not a member of M according to the definition. On the other hand, if we assume that M does not contain itself, than it has to be a member of M, again according to the very definition of M. Therefore, the statements "M is a member of M" and "M is not a member of M" both lead to a contradiction. So this must be a contradiction in the underlying theory.


A new point of view on Russell's first paradox:

In excluded-middle reasoning, each element must have a one and only one unique identity.

An element without a unique identity cannot be a participator in the excluded-middle "game".

Russell's paradox arises because we let to an element, which has no unique identity, to be a participator in our "game".


For example:

The identity of the barber of Seville cannot be defined because it is based on self contradiction which is:

1) He is from Seville.

2) He is a man.

3) He shaves all of the men in Seville (which means: he is included)

4) Only if they do not shave themselves.


By this last condition he contradicts its own identity because:

To shave all (which means: he is included) of the men in Seville only if they do not shave themselves, means that all is not_all (or a = not_a ).



The same contradiction of self identity, can be shown in the set that includes all of the sets only if they do not include themselves as their own members.

To include all (which means: it is included) of the sets only if they do not include themselves, means that all is not_all (or a = not_a ).

An element which has no self and unique identity cannot be a legitimate participator in an excluded-middle logical reasoning.

Also please be aware to the fact that the set that includes all of the elements that do not have well-defined and unique identity, has a unique self identity, and we can conclude that no one of the existing members of this set can be a legitimate participator in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system (we also can conclude that these existing members are beyond the domain of an excluded-middle logical reasoning system, which means that excluded-middle logical reasoning system is a limited logical system).

In short, no false result can be used as a logical basis to produce a paradox in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system, or in other worlds: no false statement can be considered as a paradox in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system.


a is a if and only if it is not_a (it means that a contradicts its own self identity) is not a paradox but a false statement, exactly as a is not_a is nothing but a false statement.


In other words: (a is a if and only if it is not_a) is (a is not_a).


M is M if and only if it is not_M is nothing but a false statement.


Therefore Russell's paradox is not defined within excluded-middle reasoning.
 
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  • #118
Any comments to post #117?
 
  • #119
(( Consider the set M to be "The set of all sets that do not contain themselves as members". Formally: A is an element of M if and only if A is not an element of A.))

This is not possible, as A becomes automatically void in any other set by virtue of being non-existent in it's own set.
If you are part of the Army, and I kill you, are you still a part of the Army?
 
  • #120
In an excluded-middle reasoning an element (set, number, ...) can have simultaneously a one and only one unique name (identity).

And I do not mean to some variable symbols like 'a', 'A', 'b' , 'B' ... and so on.

The identity of an element is its literal name like: a number named 'pi', a number named 'e', a number named '1', a number named '0', a set named 'all_sets_that_do_not_contain_themselves' ... and so on.

Strictly speaking, a well-defined element in an excluded-middle logical reasoning system, cannot be but an element that has a one and only one unique literal name.

Now, the set that includes 'all of the elements that do not have well-defined and unique identity', has a unique self identity.

Therefore it is a well-defined set in the framework of excluded-middle logical reasoning, but no one of its members can be considered as a well-defined element within the framework of excluded-middle reasoning (the best that can be done is to say that the members of this well defined set are false , neither true nor false, contingently true or false etc.)

There is here a positive approach of Godel's incompleteness theorem, which says: Within any consistent system, there can be found at least one well-defined set, which its content cannot be well-defined within the framework of the current logical system.

In short, in any consistent system we can find pointers, which lead us beyond the domain of the current system, or in another words:

Each consistent system includes within it the seeds of its paradigm shift, and in my opinion this is the essence of the Langauge of Mathematics.
 

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