Russell's Paradox: The Achille's Heel of Solipsism?

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The discussion revolves around the philosophical implications of solipsism and its potential conflict with Russell's paradox. The original poster questions whether solipsism, which posits that only one's mind is certain to exist, can withstand logical scrutiny, particularly in light of Russell's paradox, which suggests that a set cannot contain itself. Participants debate the nature of the mind in relation to sets, with some arguing that the mind should not be viewed as a set of all things, as this leads to contradictions. They explore concepts like fuzzy sets and multi-valued logic, suggesting that if the mind is modeled as a category rather than a set, the paradox may be circumvented. The conversation also touches on the limits of human consciousness and memory, proposing that the mind operates as a subset of a greater subconscious. Ultimately, the discussion highlights the complexities of defining existence and reality within the frameworks of philosophy and logic, questioning whether the universe or the mind can be coherently understood as singular entities.
  • #31
Wow. You've thought of everything haven't you?

The universe doesn't exist... have to remember that one.
 
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  • #32
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Wow. You've thought of everything haven't you?

The universe doesn't exist... have to remember that one.

Ha ha...no, the Universe doesn't exist, not as an entity in itself, and there's nothing (that I can think of) that's logically wrong with that. However, because of this you cannot say that "everything exists inside the Universe", since there both is no "outside the Universe" and no "Universe", you have to say "the sum total of everything that exists, is called 'Universe'".
 
  • #33
Oh I wasn't mocking - I genuinely like your argument. It makes a lot of sense. But still - it was a bit of a shock to hear that the universe does not exist...
 
  • #34
Begs the question of "why" would we, the entirety of the Universe, do this to ourselves?
which begs the questions (1) why ask why and (2) why did the chicken cross the road and (3) why does there have to be a reason?

So the allowance of these fuzzy (universal) sets allows for the Solipsistic approach, while the alternative doesn't?

it doesn't either allow it or not allow it. "it" can do whatever "it" "wants." it's not clear to me that the two have much to do with each other. but for how I'm percieving your take on solipsism, yeah, having a universal set that contains fuzzy subsets gels with solipsism.

the mind doesn't exist, not as an entity in itself, and there's nothing (that I can think of) that's logically wrong with that. However, because of this you cannot say that "everything exists inside the mind", since there both is no "outside the mind" and no "mind", you have to say "the sum total of everything that exists, is called 'mind'".
 
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  • #35
Okay, the universe does not exist as an entity in itself but is simply a term that we use to mean everything that does exist. Right so far? Then what about the idea, or hypothesis, that the universe is a singularity, all that exists, exists within the singularity that is the universe.
When you are speaking of all that exists, are you speaking materialisticly or all inclusively, assuming that there is that which is not material yet exists?
 
  • #36
Originally posted by Mentat
You see, if the Mind ≡ the Set of all things that exist, then how can the Mind itself exist at all?
:smile:

The wording above is the reason you keep getting the response that this argument applies to the universe as well. Look at the comment above. It basically asks "how can the set of all things exists?" The universe is a word applied to the set of all things.
 
  • #37
it doesn't matter whether or not set theory allows solipsism. (it does if fuzzy logic is employed, btw, and does not if fuzzy logic is not employed.)

euclidean geometry does not allow for the curvature of space-time either. so what?
 
  • #38
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
(SNIP)[/color] which begs the questions (1) why ask why and (2) why did the chicken cross the road and (3) why does there have to be a reason? (SNoP)[/color]
Now there's a well reasoned and intelligent answer, somehere.....I suspect the the word would be "Logic", and the clarity is that the Universe DOES operate in a logical manner, (is Known to) respective of Physical Matter.

O.K.?
 
  • #39
i honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic. either i can't take a compliment or i can't take a hint.

perhaps the universe operates in a logical manner, but what kind of logic?

just as a fairly specific for instance which happens to be related, how about the "logic" of the mind (which may be in the universe or the universe)? is it that there is no logic, some logic, or just an utterly mystifying yet impeccable logic? especially in regards to seemingly "illogical" things as being afraid for no good reasons, being "madly" in love, creativity, genius, insanity/psychosis, etc... if there is a logic to the universe, and the mind is in the universe, does that mean that psychosis is logical?

a couple of options, including:
1. psychosis is in fact logical but just logic that isn't understood not unlike a chaotic dynamical system which actually arises from real simple, well behaved functions. it seems really "mad" but in fact, it's totally predicatble and goverened by the logic of a function if you know the initial conditions.

2. psychosis is an example of something in the universe that is not logical. hence, not everything in the universe is logical.

2a. btw, this is under the assumption that the mind and psychosis are ultimitely based on the physicality of the brain. if you throw that out the window, the statement that physical things in the universe are logical is preserved but you allow that nonphysical things to be illogical. that would have interesting interactions with the concept of God.

1 and 2a combo: the mind is not ultimately physical yet psychosis is still logical but just logic that isn't understood.

is it possible for subatomic particles to be in two states at once? that must be how i am believing in all of the above at once.
 
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  • #40
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
it doesn't either allow it or not allow it. "it" can do whatever "it" "wants." it's not clear to me that the two have much to do with each other. but for how I'm percieving your take on solipsism, yeah, having a universal set that contains fuzzy subsets gels with solipsism.

the mind doesn't exist, not as an entity in itself, and there's nothing (that I can think of) that's logically wrong with that. However, because of this you cannot say that "everything exists inside the mind", since there both is no "outside the mind" and no "mind", you have to say "the sum total of everything that exists, is called 'mind'".

But that is not what Solipsists say, which is why I felt safe making these statements about the Universe while holding my argument against Solipsism. You see, the Solipsist doesn't say that the collection of all things that exist is the mind, they say that everything that exists, exists within their mind. The Solipsist believes that only one thing really exists, their own mind, and within that are phenomenological events, which they had previously perceived to be "objective", but which are in fact illusions.

So, my reasoning on the Universe cannot apply to Solipsism.
 
  • #41
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
it doesn't matter whether or not set theory allows solipsism. (it does if fuzzy logic is employed, btw, and does not if fuzzy logic is not employed.)

euclidean geometry does not allow for the curvature of space-time either. so what?

Euclidean geometry is not comparable to logic, is it? After all, I don't think anyone would have a problem with my calling their idea non-Euclidean, but people cringe at the thought that their idea is "illogical".
 
  • #42
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
(SNIP)[/color] i honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic. either i can't take a compliment or i can't take a hint. (SNoP)[/color]
ANd the rest of your above post hints to me you missed the last words of mine...
Moi
and the clarity is that the Universe DOES operate in a logical manner, (is Known to) respective of Physical Matter.

If all is simply 'in mind', then belief in existence of 'in mind' is a self deception, as it denies the obvious connection of 'mind' and matter/brain, hence 'all matter', gravitationally, imperceptable to any/every one, but there...
 
  • #43
the appeal to something being obvious.

it's obvious that all that is an illusion, perhaps an illusion created by the mind. there, another appeal to obviousness.
 
  • #44
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
the appeal to something being obvious.
it's obvious that all that is an illusion, perhaps an illusion created by the mind. there, another appeal to obviousness.
Einstein's responce, but he noted that it was a persistent illusion.

It is generated by matter, not mind, (interpreted by/in mind by/in imagination) and if you should wish to indulge in the 'self deception' of it, you could easily decide that yours is the only mind that ALL of this is being created for, exclusively to teach you!

Elsif you could admit quietly that you recognize "others", and all of the rest of it, like the rest of 'us'...
 
  • #45
Do universal statements have any meaning anyway?

The concepts we use to discriminate and describe the world are relative. Does it mean anything to say 'everything is an illusion' any more than to say that 'everything is small'? If it is an illusion, it must be illusory relative to something more real and this 'reality' had better have more solid evidence than the apparent reality.

Does it?

I think there is evidence that some of our perceptions have 'illusionary' aspects, and we discover this by using more reliable and accurate tools to study reality. I don't think there's any evidence at all that what we think of as reality (eg. that there is a body of matter that I am 'sitting on' that we call a 'chair') is a nillusion.
 
  • #46
Ahem the reference to illusion deals with Einstein's E = mc2 ergo m = E/c2 or; "all is energy" energy is both 'illusory' and 'invisible' (sorta) hence the idea of it being 'an illusion' stems from the reality that it is all just an interplay of energy...
 
  • #47
Energy is real.
 
  • #48
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Do universal statements have any meaning anyway?

The concepts we use to discriminate and describe the world are relative. Does it mean anything to say 'everything is an illusion' any more than to say that 'everything is small'? If it is an illusion, it must be illusory relative to something more real and this 'reality' had better have more solid evidence than the apparent reality.

Does it?


This is called the "skeptic" response to Solipsism, and I made reference to it earlier. Personally, I think it settles the matter rather well (and Wuliheron used to post much the same type of philosophy), but - since Solipsism still exists, and since it's come up in certain threads where I wish it hadn't - I still think it'd be helpful to find a logical error in the idea.
 
  • #49
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Energy is real.
And not all that easy to describe/define, aside from that, the "illusory" is in respect of the idea of "solidity" inasmuch as the 'solidity' (of reality) is constructed from that/those "illusory" element(s)...energy.
 
  • #50
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
And not all that easy to describe/define, aside from that, the "illusory" is in respect of the idea of "solidity" inasmuch as the 'solidity' (of reality) is constructed from that/those "illusory" element(s)...energy.

But, with all due respect, what is the relevance?
 
  • #51
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
And not all that easy to describe/define, aside from that, the "illusory" is in respect of the idea of "solidity" inasmuch as the 'solidity' (of reality) is constructed from that/those "illusory" element(s)...energy.

You are giving energy a quality it does not have by calling it 'illusory'. 'Illusory' does not mean 'not solid'. Air is not illusory, nor is the food energy locked up in my dinner, nor a beam of light. To be illusory, we have to have a mistaken understanding of its true nature, so the 'illusory' aspect is really a state of mind relative to actuality - its not an intrinsic property of a thing like its mass or length or for that matter, energy content.

Some physicists might argue that energy is, if anything, the only thing that is real, although that's a bit too reductionistic for me.
 
  • #52
Originally posted by Mumeishi
You are giving energy a quality it does not have by calling it 'illusory'. 'Illusory' does not mean 'not solid'. Air is not illusory, nor is the food energy locked up in my dinner, nor a beam of light. To be illusory, we have to have a mistaken understanding of its true nature, so the 'illusory' aspect is really a state of mind relative to actuality - its not an intrinsic property of a thing like its mass or length or for that matter, energy content.
Some physicists might argue that energy is, if anything, the only thing that is real, although that's a bit too reductionistic for me.
"Air is not illusory", humm, maybe because it is a "s-o-l-i-d" as for "a mistaken understanding of its true nature", well that is where I started, define it! cause there aren't to many really good definitions of just what energy actually is.

As for 'illusory', well, a radio wave (AM) just passed by your head!, did you see it?
 
  • #53
Air is a solid now is it? That's a new one to me.

Energy can be invisible to our unaided senses, that doesn't make it 'illusory', that makes it invisible (normally). Air can also be invisible, but it is not illusory either, it's a 'g-a-s'.

Energy. Energy is a property associated with a material body. Energy is not a material substance. When bodies interact, the energy of one may increase at the expense of the other, and this is sometimes called a transfer of energy. This does not mean that we could intercept this energy in transit and bottle some of it. After the transfer one of the bodies may have higher energy than before, and we speak of it as having "stored energy". But that doesn't mean that the energy is "contained in it" in the same sense as water in a bucket.
Misuse example: "The Earth's auroras—the northern and southern lights—illustrate how energy from the sun travels to our planet." —Science News, 149, June 1, 1996. This sentence blurs understanding of the process by which energetic charged particles from the sun interact with the Earth's magnetic field and our atmosphere to cause auroras.
Whenever one hears people speaking of "energy fields", "psychic energy", and other expressions treating energy as a "thing" or "substance", you know they aren't talking physics, they are talking moonshine.

In certain quack theories of oriental medicine, such as qi gong (pronounced chee gung) something called qi is believed to circulate through the body on specific, mappable pathways called meridians. This idea pervades the contrived explanations/rationalizations of acupuncture, and the qi is generally translated into English as energy. No one has ever found this so-called "energy", nor confirmed the uniqueness of its meridian pathways, nor verified, through proper double-blind tests, that any therapy or treatment based on the theory actually works. The proponents of qi can't say whether it is a fluid, gas, charge, current, or something else, and their theory requires that it doesn't obey any of the physics of known carriers of energy. But, as soon as we hear someone talking about it as if it were a thing we know they are not talking science, but quackery.

The statement "Energy is a property of a body" needs clarification. As with many things in physics, the size of the energy depends on the coordinate system. A body moving with speed V in one coordinate system has kinetic energy ½mV2. The same body has zero kinetic energy in a coordinate system moving along with it at speed V. Since no inertial coordinate system can be considered "special" or "absolute", we shouldn't say "The kinetic energy of the body is ..." but should say "The kinetic energy of the body moving in this reference frame is ..."
Energy (take two). Elementary textbooks often say "there are many forms of energy, kinetic, potential, thermal, nuclear, etc. They can be converted from one form to another." Let's try to put more sturcture to this. There are really only two functional categories of energy. The energy associated with particles or systems can be said to be either kinetic energy or potential energy.


The kinetic energy of a particle of mass m and speed v is ½mv2. The kinetic energy of a system of particles is ½MV2 where M is the system mass and V is the speed of its center of mass. One part of a system's kinetic energy may be thermal energy due to disordered motions and vibrations of particles, on the microscopic scale of molecules, atoms, and even smaller particles.
The potential energy of a system is always due to some other system exchanging energy with it by forces moving the system or parts of the system. Potential energy is a way of accounting for the work done by or on another system interacting with the system of interest. Gravitational potential energy is the work we must do against the force due to gravity to move an object to a new position. Once we have accounted for the effect of other systems we can treat our system as if it were "isolated", which is often convenient.
Systems may exchange energy in two ways, through work or heat. Work and heat are never in a body or system, they measure the energy transferred during interactions between systems. Work always requires motion of a system or parts of it, moving the system's center of mass. Heating does not require macroscopic motion of either system. It involves exchanges of energy between systems on the microscopic level, and does not move the center of mass of either system.
 
  • #54
Originally posted by Mumeishi
Air is a solid now is it? That's a new one to me.
Energy can be invisible to our unaided senses, that doesn't make it 'illusory', that makes it invisible (normally). Air can also be invisible, but it is not illusory either, it's a 'g-a-s'.
Humm find that really curious that you didn't know that the Atoms (that comprise what we call a G-A-S) are SOLID(S) little things, QUITE SOLID, that's why we have phenomenon like "Wind Resistence" (reguardless of your physics teachers instructions to disreguard wind resistence)

As for your posting on energy, care to show the rest of us the link it comes from, (something about copyright law) it helps if you reference what you quote/cite.

Now, please tell me what "illusory" means to you. (cause your thinking that "Air is a G-a-s" and that that therefore tells us that it isn't comprised of solids is really Illusory on your part!)

And a P.S. your quote does nothing to resolve the idea of "Energy being illusory" Nothing at all!
 
  • #55
Mentat

I think you're posting a lot of good sense.

As someone said earlier this issue is all about self-reference.If solipsism is true and the Universe is just consciousness self-referencing, then by reduction that self-reference becomes infinitely regressive until at the limit there's nothing there at all. This is the 'Emptiness' referred to in Buddhism, claimed to be all that is 'noumenal' at the limit. (Although I'd say that Buddhism is not quite solipsistic or idealist).

In this respect Jeebus's 'fuzzy sets', which transcend the truth and falsity values of two-value logic (formal axiomatic systems), give the right impression of 'emptiness' as a concept (rather than as an experience), for paradoxically it is also 'fullness'. Such contradictions are the very stuff of non-dual philosophy, which asserts that two-value logic, or dual thinking, must always end in contradictions and paradoxes like Russell's. I'd say that the evidence clearly backs up this assertion.

Zeno's paradox of the race between Achilles and the tortoise can also be used to arrive at the same conclusion. Perhaps all logical paradoxes do.
 
  • #56
Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Humm find that really curious that you didn't know that the Atoms (that comprise what we call a G-A-S) are SOLID(S) little things, QUITE SOLID, that's why we have phenomenon like "Wind Resistence" (reguardless of your physics teachers instructions to disreguard wind resistence)

May I politely suggest that you brush up on your basic science. Solid is one of the three recognised states or phases of matter, the other two being liquid and gas. Sometimes plasma is included as a fourth state.
Is an atom solid? That is meaningless by the definition/description of solid given above since atoms are not made of matter, they comprise matter, they are not made of atoms. Also, atoms are not like little billiard balls, they are something like 99.99% (approximately) empty space with of a tiny dense nucleus of protons and neutrons and orbited by electrons. And these subatomic particles are not thought to be like little billiard balls either - electrons for example, are spread out in space like clouds or waves. So in what sense are atoms or air solid?

We have wind resistance because atoms have mass and thus momentum. Is that what you mean by 'solid'?
Solid, the physical state of matter in which samples maintain their shape and size. Some highly viscous liquids, such as cold molasses, flow so slowly that they seem to retain their size and shape and thus appear to be solids. X-ray examination, however, reveals an important difference in microscopic structure. Solids exhibit a regular arrangement of atomic, ionic, or molecular particles—solid objects have a crystalline structure. In contrast, the molecules of liquids are arranged irregularly—liquids have no crystalline structure. See Matter; Matter, States of.
From:
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761571650

I'm getting quite frustrated. Why am I debating with you? You claim to have special insights into the relationship between physical and nonphysical, yet you don't even seem to have a grasp of basic high school level science.

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
As for your posting on energy, care to show the rest of us the link it comes from, (something about copyright law) it helps if you reference what you quote/cite.

Sorry, here's the link:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/glossary.htm#discrepancy

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Now, please tell me what "illusory" means to you.

I already have. i told you that to me, 'illusory' meant that we have a misunderstanding of the nature of something. It refers to the relation between a psychological state or model and reality itself. Its not an intrinsic property. The dictionary is in agreement:
illusion
noun
1 [C or U] an idea or belief which is not true:
He had no illusions about his talents as a singer.
I'm under no illusions (= I understand the truth) about the man I married.
My boss is labouring under the illusion that (= wrongly believes that) the project will be completed on time.
2 [C] something that is not really what it seems to be:
A large mirror in a room can create the illusion of space.
The impression of calm in the office is just an illusion.
]

From:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=39078&dict=CALD

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
(cause your thinking that "Air is a G-a-s" and that that therefore tells us that it isn't comprised of solids is really Illusory on your part!)

BS. See above

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
And a P.S. your quote does nothing to resolve the idea of "Energy being illusory" Nothing at all!

There is nothing to 'resolve'. There is no issue. I've given you a definition of energy in terms of properies of physical systems. There is nothing to suggest that energy is illusory. If you want to claim that, then you must first define whay YOU mean by illusory then provide evidence. And if your definition of 'illusory' is radically different from the one everyone else is using then we would be justified in questionioning whether it should apply.
 
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  • #57
This is very interesting Canute,

Can you expand on this or refer me to some further reading?

Thanks
 
  • #58
Originally posted by Mumeishi
This is very interesting Canute,

Can you expand on this or refer me to some further reading?

Thanks
There's a few topics rolled into one there so I don't know which one you mean exactly. If you search under Zeno, Goedel, Russell's paradox, then you'll get a lot of useful arguments around the implications for reality of self-reference and paradoxes. You could also try Penrose, Hofstedter, Popper, Kant etc. They all discuss self-reference and its implications. I think Wittgenstein also ended up with the same sort of conclusions through analysing language. Plato's metaphor of the shadows on the cave wall is also worth exploring.


On Mentat's connection of self-reference to solipsism and idealism you'll probably have to make your way, as with my connection to non-dual philosophy, although I think Penrose explores it a bit (in relation to 'God' I think) in 'Shadows of the Mind'.

Canute
 
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  • #59
Originally posted by Mumeishi
May I politely suggest that you brush up on your basic science. Go Ahead, I played a game with the Idea of "Solidity"...[/color] Solid is one of the three recognised states or phases of matter, the other two being liquid and gas. Sometimes plasma is included as a fourth state.

Now all of this...[/color] Is an atom solid? That is meaningless by the definition/description of solid given above since atoms are not made of matter, they comprise matter, they are not made of atoms. Also, atoms are not like little billiard balls, they are something like 99.99% (approximately) empty space with of a tiny dense nucleus of protons and neutrons and orbited by electrons. And these subatomic particles are not thought to be like little billiard balls either - electrons for example, are spread out in space like clouds or waves. So in what sense are atoms or air solid?

We have wind resistance because atoms have Is defeated by Honesty, your admission to the recognition that atoms are solid [/color] mass and thus momentum. Is that what you mean by 'solid'? See above...intro...[/color]

I already have. i told you that to me, 'illusory' meant that we have a misunderstanding of the nature of something. It refers to the relation between a psychological state or model and reality itself. Its not an intrinsic property. The dictionary is in agreement:

As I understand 'illusory' it is "having the nature of an illusion" energy is a bit like that, electricity in a wire sort of thing, can't see it, just like the EMR qualities of atoms, illusory...[/color]

There is nothing to 'resolve'. There is no issue. I've given you a definition of energy in terms of properies of physical systems. There is nothing to suggest that energy is illusory. If you want to claim that, then you must first define whay YOU mean by illusory then provide evidence. And if your definition of 'illusory' is radically different from the one everyone else is using then we would be justified in questionioning whether it should apply.
I had said 'Air was illusory' because it still retains the quality of a solid in it's atomic comprisal, (that is a misunderstanding of its nature, falls into the category, but not really really strongly...I admit that too...) don't believe that one, HS science?? try finding the energy levels required to break one (an atom) into the little pieces you would wish to debate upon the arrangements of...

Nature of 'energy' is defined, in Science, (and society) just don't think it's the best one yet...maybe...maybe not...
 
  • #60
Originally posted by Canute
There's a few topics rolled into one there so I don't know which one you mean exactly. If you search under Zeno, Goedel, Russell's paradox, then you'll get a lot of useful arguments around the implications for reality of self-reference and paradoxes. You could also try Penrose, Hofstedter, Popper, Kant etc. They all discuss self-reference and its implications. I think Wittgenstein also ended up with the same sort of conclusions through analysing language. Plato's metaphor of the shadows on the cave wall is also worth exploring.


On Mentat's connection of self-reference to solipsism and idealism you'll probably have to make your way, as with my connection to non-dual philosophy, although I think Penrose explores it a bit (in relation to 'God' I think) in 'Shadows of the Mind'.

Thanks, I've come across some of these ideas before and would like to pursue them in more depth. One thing that I'm not certain of is whether these epistemological problems are pointing to a profound, zen-like insight into the nature of reality or whether they are an inconsequential by-product of one system imperfectly modelling another ('objective') system.
 

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