Saddle Point Requirements for f'(x)=0

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which a function can have a saddle point, particularly focusing on the implications of the derivative being zero at certain points. Participants explore the relationship between the first derivative, inflection points, and the nature of saddle points in the context of single-variable functions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether it is necessary for a function to have a zero derivative at a saddle point, specifically asking if f'(x) = 0 is required for some point x.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the definition of saddle points, with one participant asserting that saddle points do not apply to functions of a single variable.
  • One participant provides examples of functions with horizontal tangents at specific points, illustrating that f'(p) = 0 can correspond to local minima, maxima, or inflection points.
  • A participant raises the question of whether it is possible for f'(x_0) to be non-zero at a point x_0 where the function has an inflection point.
  • Another participant responds affirmatively, providing the example of f(x) = x^(1/3), where the derivative is not defined at x = 0, yet an inflection point exists due to a change in curvature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of the first derivative being zero for saddle points, with some asserting it is not required while others provide examples that challenge this notion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions for saddle points in single-variable functions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the definitions and assumptions regarding saddle points and inflection points, particularly in the context of single-variable functions. The discussion does not resolve the mathematical implications of these concepts.

LagrangeEuler
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Is it necessary for some point ##x## of the function to be saddle that
##f'(x)=0##?
 
Last edited:
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LagrangeEuler said:
Is it necessary for some point of the function to be saddle that
##f'(x)=0##?
What you have written isn't clear. For one thing, saddle points aren't applicable to functions of a single variable. For another, do you mean that f'(x) = 0 for some specific value of x? Or do you mean that f'(x) is identically equal to zero?

If you meant f'(p) = 0, for some p, all this means is that at the point (p, f(p)), the tangent to the curve is horizontal. The following three functions all have horizontal tangents when x = 0.
1. f(x) = x2 - there is a local (and global) minimum for x = 0.
2. g(x) = x3 - there is an inflection point for x = 0. This function has no minimum and no maximum.
3. h(x) = 1 - x2 - there is a local (and global) maximum for x = 0.

If you meant f'(x) ##\equiv## 0 (i.e., identically equal to zero), it must be the case that f(x) = C, the graph of which is a horizontal line. This "curve" has no minimum and no maximum.
 
Yes I mean for particular value of ##x##. For some ##x_0## is it possible situation that
##f'(x_0)\neq 0## and that in ##x_0## function has inflection point?
 
LagrangeEuler said:
Yes I mean for particular value of ##x##. For some ##x_0## is it possible situation that
##f'(x_0)\neq 0## and that in ##x_0## function has inflection point?
Yes. Let f(x) = x1/3.
f' is not defined at x = 0, nor is f'', but the curvature changes from concave up for x < 0 to concave down for x > 0. The fact that the curvature changes direction on either side of x = 0 is sufficient to be able to state that there is an inflection point for x = 0, which is in the domain of this function.
 

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