News San Francisco's Proposed Law: Banning Handguns for Residents?

[EL]

I gave it as an example which is what the poster asked. I'm not the one who picked it apart. Your smart a$$ attitude is not helping your cause.

So give me a better example then...or even harder...try to give me a good example not based on "fear".

 

[EL]

I don't want to "send" my kids to school anyway, but that's irrelevant.

Yes. Think you got what I ment anyway.

Yeah, I would prefer to have my kids in a school where somebody could do something if the school was being taken over. In some places STUDENTS can bring GUNS to school (rifle clubs).

Ok, I would be a lot more frightened by the thought of that guns ending up in some kids hands...

 

[Zlex]

The utility of gun ownership benefits society even when the gun is not being held or even fired. In fact, the utility of gun ownership benefits society even when a particular household does not in fact contain a gun owner, but merely might. When one imagines a society that loses its mind and posts huge signs in every neighborhood ("THIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS GUARANTEED NOT BE ARMED OR YOUR MONEY BACK"), the 'utility' of mere possible/not actual gun ownership is apparent.

Nobody here is mistaking a government ban on firearms with an actual firearm free society, just as nobody here would mistake a goivernment ban on drugs with a drug free society. So, the conclusion as to who would be armed/registered, and who would not be armed/registered, in all of these goofy 'we need more gun control in the Nerf World' debates, is apparent.

The firearms that may or may not be in my possession have been successfully 'used' 24/7/365.

My car, on the other hand, gets used much less often, and serves no utility at all to society when parked in my garage. In fact, it's utility to society is mere convenience, unless you count those among us who use their cars to deliver much needed human organs across town for transplants. In fact, 100% of us when actually 'using' our cars are more aptly described as increasing the odds that organ doners will be created. The actual deployment of a few million ft-lbfs of destructive energy in the name of getting home from the gym in time to watch Felicity will do that.


Ask yourself this question(again): Before a perfect stragner is permitted to actually deploy a million ft-lbfs of destructive energy, and aim it at a target mere feet from me and my loved ones, shouldn't society even have to ask what the reason is for actually deploying the event?

Running a human heart across town to the transplant operation?

On a jaunt across town for the really, really good Italian Ice?

Heading out to the quarry to blast some rocks with your merely few hundred ft-lbf capable little popgun?

Conveniently living 20 miles from my non-defense rated job at The Gap as a matter of choice, because I didn't want to work on the farm?

Driving to the gym--for my workout?

Forget mere 'bazookas'; 17 year old girls and boys regularly head on out to the highway actually deploying(not, owning)the destructive energy equivalent of 5000 .45 caliber 230g 'cop killer' bullets, fired continuously, and aimed at targets mere feet and sometimes inches from each other.

All of that, for as long and as far as their pre-ban 20 gallon gas tanks will let them.

500+ such kids killed every month due to the 'usage' of DUI; teen drug dealers killing other teen drug dealers over drug turf wars, and counted as 'children' don't even come close to that kind of carnage.

 

[Zlex]

Re, the 2nd Amendment: Its horribly, horribly written, perhaps on purpose. My interpretation is "a well regulated militia" is the National Guard, the modern incarnation of the militias that really were just farmers with personal guns. "The right to bear arms," is far from absolute, and needs to be heavily restricted.

In the context of the times the amendment was written, the 'Regulars' were trained, professional soldiers.

Why the use of that word 'regular' to refer to trained, professional soldiers, who were distinguished from plain militia by the fact that they were 'regulars?' Why the use of that same word to refer to militia in the 2nd Amendment?

The reason was not just applicable to colonial times; the reason was cited as a factor in America's ability to mobilize for WWII. The ability to quickly train just plain folks and turn them into Regulars when the security of a free nation requires it is enhanced when just plain folks show up already familiar with arms, ie, well regulated militia, as opposed to regulars, which well regulated militia might become upon professional military training in service to the nation.

Therefore, a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Since the Articles already grant power to the federal government to federalize the militia when needed, and notwithstanding Massachusetts and Connecticuts once polite refusal(War of 1812)to federalize their militia, to believe that the 2nd Amendment applied to collective arming of militia only would be tantamount to claiming that 10% of the Bill of Rights was dedicated to forbidding the government from infringing the right to arm itself.

ie, an absurdity in the context of a 'constitution.'

The leading dependent clause is simply an enumeration of a benefit to the security of a free state which follows from not infringing a pre-existing right of the people. It is, in a sense, a justification to the gun grabbers of the day for why it is not a good thing to wax totalitarian.

Lets acknowledge that neither the 1st Amendment nor 2nd AMendment is absolute; just as we do not have the right to run into a theatre and scream 'FIRE,' nor do we have the right to run into a theatre and 'FIRE.' Well, no ****. But, does pointing out that not even the NRA advocates that we should have a right to run into a theatre and 'FIRE' support a claim that citizens should have half of their vocal cords removed, because anyone of us might run into a theatre and yell 'FIRE?'

After all, we can understand each other perfectly well when we whisper to each other, and there is always the state licensed bullhorns that only the police and fire department trained operators should have, in case of a societal emergency.

 

[mattmns]

The utility of gun ownership benefits society even when the gun is not being held or even fired. In fact, the utility of gun ownership benefits society even when a particular household does not in fact contain a gun owner, but merely might. When one imagines a society that loses its mind and posts huge signs in every neighborhood ("THIS NEIGHBORHOOD IS GUARANTEED NOT BE ARMED OR YOUR MONEY BACK"), the 'utility' of mere possible/not actual gun ownership is apparent.

Now that is not to bad of a point, and I actually believe it. You pro gun people keep talking about these people who will kill you in dark alleys and stuff, personally I find all that bogus. I live in the worst part of my town (about 1mill pop.) and I have never had a gun pointed at me, well in a serious matter at least. This made me realize that you guys either live in crime-ridden towns, or are making these examples up to scare us, probably the latter (not to say that such a thing does not exist, or has never happened). Now Zlex has made a considerably good argument, in my case at least. Right now I think that the US is quite safe, or at least it is in my eyes. If we were to change the gun control laws it could affect, negatively, the balance. So, I would, if I could, change my vote to Current gun laws are fine.

Back to the shotgun tree example. Maybe I am mistaken, but I thought shotguns usually dispersed the pellets in a cone, or circle, pattern. This is why I thought you were close to the tree.

I do not have any problem with Iraqis improvising weapons, I would probably do the same. You can not stop people from improvising, or creating weapons.

We know why you shouldn't be allowed to own or be near anything that might function as a weapon --- now, tell the rest of us why we with less murderous natures should not be allowed ownership of firearms for whatever peaceful purposes we choose.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. What I mean is that if I were an Iraqi and I had Americans shooting at me, then I too, would probably improvise and either make a weapon or find one. And I would like to think you would do the same.

Murderous nature? Where did you get this from? I do not own a gun, or any official weapons(yes I have knives, but they are used to butter my pancakes, or cut steak), and I have no desire to kill people. Not sure where you are getting this from, but I guess if you need to flame people to make your point, then good job!

 

[member 5645]

My platform:

1. Close the loophole, have a national database of gun transactions that is kept up to date. Justification: "Well regulated militia".

2. Concealed carry. Justification; "Right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Honestly, I'm fine with both of those.

 

[Bystander]

(snip)Murderous nature? Where did you get this from?

Your original statement: "Guns are designed and made to kill/destroy things, that is the problem." My inference from this statement is that it is your nature to use firearms to kill/destroy --- therefore, I really don't want to see you anywhere near such devices. Also implicit in this statement is your assessment of people who do own firearms --- little something the cranium crackers call "projection, transference," whatever else, denoting the human tendency to see themselves in others --- hence, my use of the word murderous. Not intended as a flame --- a barb, perhaps, suggesting that you might consider the possibility that there really are other uses and intents driving firearms ownership --- appreciation of art, craftsmanship, and such in my case (trash is trash, Glock is glock, and a Colt Python is a beautiful piece of machinery --- getting it tuned and maintained to punch holes in paper where it is aimed is not a trivial exercise).

I do not own a gun, or any official weapons(yes I have knives, but they are used to butter my pancakes, or cut steak), and I have no desire to kill people.

Nor a desire to "live and let live," I take it --- you stay away from my Python, and I'll stay away from your butterknife. Household defense? Uh-uh --- this house is protected by Louisville Slugger and SK Tools --- don't plan on ever playing the piano again.

Not sure where you are getting this from, but I guess if you need to flame people to make your point, then good job!

 

[Gokul43201]

Where are all the aussies when you need them ? Since the 90s, Australia has enforced very tight gun control laws, that met with a lot of opposition initially. What's the feeling now ?

 

[mattmns]

All of you need to realize that I have no problem with responsible gun users. The problem is that there are a ton of irresponsible gun users.

Your original statement: "Guns are designed and made to kill/destroy things, that is the problem." My inference from this statement is that it is your nature to use firearms to kill/destroy --- therefore, I really don't want to see you anywhere near such devices. Also implicit in this statement is your assessment of people who do own firearms --- little something the cranium crackers call "projection, transference," whatever else, denoting the human tendency to see themselves in others --- hence, my use of the word murderous. Not intended as a flame --- a barb, perhaps, suggesting that you might consider the possibility that there really are other uses and intents driving firearms ownership --- appreciation of art, craftsmanship, and such in my case (trash is trash, Glock is glock, and a Colt Python is a beautiful piece of machinery --- getting it tuned and maintained to punch holes in paper where it is aimed is not a trivial exercise).

Thank you for clearing that up.

Yes many guns look beautiful, if you collect guns for their beauty that is perfectly fine (or a collector for any other reason). I do not have a problem with gun collectors, hunters, people who target practice, etc. Like I said: I do not have any problem with people who use guns responsibly. I do, however, have a problem with people who carry a gun only to inflict harm on another human being.

 

[Bystander]

All of you need to realize that I have no problem with responsible gun users. The problem is that there are a ton of irresponsible gun users.(snip)

How many bad apples? 10,000? 100,000? Took 15 yrs. to stir-fry Ted Bundy; Charles Manson's still dining on the taxpayers' dimes; Scott P. will be a ward of the state for years; T. Kaczynski (sp? I ain't going to check it now) is mentally incompetent to be tried; our little friend in Texas Wednesday had how many years of jailtime accumulated but not served; and on, and on ... The question being, what is accomplished by interfering with 50M gun owners current rights without taking some steps toward dispostion of the bad apples? Revenue enhancement? Seems to be the ultimate goal of every bit of legislation directed toward solution of social problems these days. What's easier (read "easier" for more profitable in terms of revenues to be misspent)? Round up 50-100k bad apples for a stir-fry, or make a grab at 50M gun owners wallets for registration and administrative fees?

Plea bargains, sealed records, insanity pleas, juvenile court jurisdiction (no permanent record) for major crimes, time off for good behavior, parole, and the whole ABA keep 'em on the street stirring things up for ABA revenues thing might be of a tad more concern to people genuinely disturbed with the quality of life and public safety than the activities of the 50M.

 

[Gokul43201]

There's no conclusive evidence that death penalties are cheaper than life terms. Actually, I've only seen reports providing statistics that argue the reverse.

"Elimination of the death penalty would result in a net savings to the state of at least several tens of millions of dollars annually, and a net savings to local governments in the millions to tens of millions of dollars on a statewide basis." –Joint Legislative Budget Committee of the California Legislature, Sept. 9, 1999

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/MassCostTestimony.pdf

But this is not really germane to the present discussion. I apologize for the digression.

 

[marley.wannabee]

current gun laws are way to harsh...
if you read jefferson's memoirs he implies(to me anyway) that the people need to be armed in the same ways the government is armed. This makes his every few decade revolution possible. IMO the gun laws, even in place, are un-constitutional. there is no choice in the poll for me

my preffered choice would be... "the current gun laws are unconstitutional"

 

[buildertech@sti.net]

What do you mean you don't know why people want to carry CCW? It is obvious that you do not educate yourself as you should. Just get up and turn on the news once in a while or read the papers or, or , or ? You must have meant "you could not understand why people would not want to carry a gun" legally of course!. It is not like it used to be, times have changed. Folks need to change with them unfortunately if they want to survive.

Bart

 

[buildertech@sti.net]

In our county, we are all pro-gun. The Sheriff encourages its law abiding citizens to "pack heat". They even train the applicants with their own coarse adminitered by Deputies as the "Range Masters". We don't have any, (or so very little that it does not register) major problems involving guns or violent crimes because a lot of us have CCW permits. That enables us to protect ourselves without having to depned on the police to get there first. The police almost always get there just in time to fill out a report for investigation. Very seldom do they get there in time to stop the agressor or criminal before someone is hurt or killed. This is true everywhere. Even most ignorant folks know this but obviously, not all of them know this yet. Just read some of the statements being made and you will see what I mean. Yep, the dumb ass that tries to rob and/or harm most of those in our community is going to get a BIG surprise. In most cases, about 230 grains worth. It is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it, right? No one wants to have to use it, most of all me. But we will not allow the criminal element to take advantage of our citizens either. And we have the hardware and training to stop them.

 

[spender]

With this corrupted, fascist government in power, every truly patriotic American needs guns more than ever,just in case.

 

[Moonbear]

This argument is a straw-man. It misses the point. Guns are a tool: they are a tool designed for killing things and they are highly effective at it. Had the kids at Columbine only had access to knives, how many people would they have succeeded in killing? Could Oswald have hit Kennedy with a knife from 300 yards? If gun control laws had been just a tiny bit weaker and the Columbine kids had succeeded in acquiring the .50 cal machine gun they had their eye on, how many people would they have succeeded in killing?

My view on guns is this:

-Home defense is important. For this, the ideal weapon is a pump-action shotgun: short range, high power, easy to aim, and you can use it as a club if you need to.
-Hunting is a reasonable use: hunting rifles are ok (even semi-auto).
-Handguns are not ok for civilians - expecially not concealed. The usual case study of "what if you were mugged and you had a gun..." doesn't have the outcome most people think: if you are mugged by someone with a gun and try to pull yours, odds are pretty good, you'll be dead.
-Guns, being what they are, require heavy safety regulation. Currently, they are about the least regulated of any consumer product. Many are designed in such a way as to make them easy to modify for nefarious purposes. We require licensing before people are allowed to operate a common tool that if used properly is perfectly safe: there is no reason not to require it for a tool that even if used correctly, results in a death.

Re, the 2nd Amendment: Its horribly, horribly written, perhaps on purpose. My interpretation is "a well regulated militia" is the National Guard, the modern incarnation of the militias that really were just farmers with personal guns. "The right to bear arms," is far from absolute, and needs to be heavily restricted.

This is precisely my view on gun control as well (with the possible exception of home defense)! I have no problem with guns owned for hunting (shotguns or rifles), but find concealed carry laws disturbing.

I also find that the argument that criminals have handguns so we need them too to be weak. The reason it is weak is that laws prohibiting ownership of handguns gets them out of the hands of criminals in two ways: 1) they can't legally buy them, 2) homes won't have them for them to illegally obtain through theft. The average law-abiding citizen who wants to own a gun for "protection" is also going to be more likely to hesitate to pull the trigger than the criminal is. End result, one dead citizen, one live criminal. If I hear someone breaking into my house, I'm heading out the back door or a window, let them take the jewelry and TV, it's not worth my life.

I especially emphasize the need for training to go along with licensing. In days past, fathers passed down to sons this training when they would go out hunting (yes, that sounds sexist, but it is more or less how things were done). Somewhere this broke down. I know when I was a kid, my dad was an avid hunter (bow, rifle, and shotgun), and eventually, he gave up because there started to be too many idiots out who didn't care what (or who) they shot at, and it got too unsafe to be out in the woods with them. To own something with such a deadly function, spending a few weekends going through a safety training class and skill test seems a small expectation to obain a license. I would further recommend that if the gun is to be stored in the home, every person in that home be given gun safety training, not just the one person planning on going hunting with them.

 

[ptex]

I wish we would go back to banning some guns because my collections of pre ban wepons has lossed value. But I have a ton of fun going to the range a shooting my guns. Concealed carry is a safe way for me to go back a forth from the range and the gun shop ect. without having to leave my guns out in the open on my car seat for all to see I think this could prove too tempting for some to break into my car or some stupid thing. This way no one has to know that I have a gun but me.

 

[Moonbear]

I wish we would go back to banning some guns because my collections of pre ban wepons has lossed value. But I have a ton of fun going to the range a shooting my guns. Concealed carry is a safe way for me to go back a forth from the range and the gun shop ect. without having to leave my guns out in the open on my car seat for all to see I think this could prove too tempting for some to break into my car or some stupid thing. This way no one has to know that I have a gun but me.

If they were banned altogether or you stored them at the range, this wouldn't be an issue. However, I admit this isn't something I had considered with respect to concealed carry laws. I thought concealed carry referred to carrying it on your person. Is a locked box in your trunk still considered concealed carry? I work on a medical school campus, so the restrictions that apply to both a university and to hospitals apply to us in terms of not being allowed to carry concealed weapons (when they passed the law allowing concealed weapons here, which was only this past year, it was rather disturbing suddenly seeing the no firearms signs appearing all over entrances to buildings). The rules, as were distributed on campus, are that if someone has a weapon, they must leave it in a locked box in their car or not carry it onto campus at all. So, I assumed a locked box was an exception to what is considered concealed carry. Is that not the case, or not the case everywhere?

I wouldn't have a problem with people keeping a handgun stored in the equivalent of a safety deposit box in a secured vault of a shooting range for the purpose of target practice. To me, if your only use is to participate in a bit of sport shooting targets, that's fine, as long as the guns never go anywhere where they are intended for use against another person, and are not removed from a secured facility where they could accidentally (or intentionally) get into the hands of either a child or a criminal.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

I bought a gun this year-- 30-06 w/ scope. Makes me very happy just to hold it & slide the bolt up & down, and I can see Jupiter's moons throught the scope. Generally, guns are poorly regulated but I really don't care. Handguns are just as protected by the Constitution as rifles & shotguns. You have to draw the line somewhere though-- people should probably not be allowed to have their own JDAMS. Yet the self-defence argument-- that guns should only be kept and beared for protection & hunting-- does not hold up constitutionally. Virtually anybody with a lathe and a few other machining tools can modify a semi-auto bushmaster to be a full-auto silenced SMG. As this hypothetical illegal gun would be illegal, it would not be noted or regulated would it?
However, the counter argument to legal full-auto assault weapons is obvious: those devices will inevitably fall into the hands of those who will use them. They'll get stolen and terrorist cells within the US will wipe out a shopping mall. Do the benefits of free armamants outwiegh the costs and risks? Can we protect our national interests from foreign invaders or internal coup without liberalized gun laws? With the regular military weakened and overextended ovseas, it is a compelling argument that citizens ought to fill the national security void and gun laws should be somewhat liberalized.

 

[cragwolf]

From the perspective of someone who tries (but usually fails) to express precisely what he means, I find the US second amendment to be poorly constructed:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed..

Why put in the first clause at all? Is the "Militia" separate from "the people"? Does the right to bear arms apply to people who form a well regulated militia, or to people in general? If the latter, then why include the first clause at all?

Madison's original version of the second amendment went something like this:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

This is even worse. Congress changed Madison's original version, and swapped the order of the "militia" clause and "right to bear arms" clause. I have no idea why they did that.

Another thing that confuses me is that the second amendment is not binding on the states, or in other words, the fourteenth amendment doesn't apply to it. So states can (and do) make any gun laws they like. There are cities and towns which have banned guns altogether.

 

[russ_watters]

cragwolf, that's why its my suspicion that it was purposely poorly writen.

Regarding the 14th amendment, that's not true. I can't find a recent case that made it to the US Supreme Court, but here is one that went to a federal district court: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39ca7df74b72.htm

The case involves a federal district judge's decision last year to dismiss gun possession charges against a Texas doctor because, he ruled, individual citizens have a constitutional right to gun possession. The judge relied largely on scholarship in the 1990's holding that the drafters of the Second Amendment meant to give individuals the unfettered right to arms, even though the Supreme Court suggested in 1939 that the amendment guarantees only a collective right for states to arm their militias.

It gets a little sticky, but all of the rights in the Bill of Rights are regulated at the state and local level, but can be challenged all the way up to the USSC. The First Amendment is probably the one most often at issue in such challenges - I remember a case I studied where a Klan lawyer argued against a South Carolina law that banned cross burning. He lost.

 

[ptex]

If they were banned altogether or you stored them at the range, this wouldn't be an issue. However, I admit this isn't something I had considered with respect to concealed carry laws. I thought concealed carry referred to carrying it on your person. Is a locked box in your trunk still considered concealed carry?

In my state (NH) it is, in NH if you have no concealed carry paperwork your gun needs to be in plain site unloaded with the chamber open. To get the paperwork in my state requires you to go down to the PD fill out a form with the reason you need the paperwork in which case I was told to put down "second amendment" but I use the reasons I gave above and barring anything bad on your record they have to give it to you. As far as leaving my guns at the range well I need lots of room for cleaning also I try to get the largest capacity clips I can and I fill them while watching TV. Reloading is time consuming and a pain at the range.

But shooting at the range is fun and having a tech9 hanging around makes me feel a bit safer although the chances of me having to use are slim at best. I wish that ban would come back into effect so the value of my guns would go back up.
Anyone have stats on states with tough gun laws vs. states with laid back gun laws and crimes? It seems to me that the crime rate in MA vs. NH is much different with MA having a higher crime rate. Is this because people know that they may get shoot. Or is it because MA has more people?

 

[Moonbear]

Anyone have stats on states with tough gun laws vs. states with laid back gun laws and crimes? It seems to me that the crime rate in MA vs. NH is much different with MA having a higher crime rate. Is this because people know that they may get shoot. Or is it because MA has more people?

I found a few sites with stats, though there seems to be conflicting evidence and I'm not sure which can be trusted. I'd like to see some reliable stats that includes considerations of things like trends over time before and after implementation of gun laws. You might see an increase in crimes after a gun law is implemented because crimes were already increasing rapidly and was the reason for resorting to a gun law in the first place. To see trends over several years would be more useful than picking one year before and one year after a law is put into effect. You also need time to enforce the law.

I think this is one of those issues that will never be resolved unless there is an amendment to the constitution defining better what is meant by a militia. Perhaps it's okay if everyone is permitted to keep a musket.

 

[BobG]

In general, I'm kind of ambivalent about gun control laws. I don't have a big problem with the general population being able to own small arms (at least, not until I read about people using their shotgun to chop wood ).

I once saw a shop selling bumper stickers that said, "If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would accidently shoot their wife and kids". While I think the bumper sticker was intended to be anti-gun, it actually presents a pretty accurate assessment of the impact of gun laws.

Gun laws, whether pro or anti gun, have almost no impact on crime rates or anyone's chances of being shot by any stranger. One could say that strong gun laws reduce the chance of accidental shooting and domestic shootings. They'd be right and their justification is just about as sound as mandatory seat belt laws, mandatory helmet laws, and many of the anti-smoking laws.

I do have a problem with passing laws that restrict personal freedoms based on the idealistic motivation of making my life safer - even those laws that try to prevent me from doing something I wouldn't do regardless.

I think the idea that a hand-gun in the home will protect your family instead of increase the danger within your home is seriously flawed. The best you can hope to do, with safety locks, separation of ammo and gun, etc, is to reduce the danger to minimal levels, but those same measures virtually eliminate the self-protection traits, as well. That makes it a bad personal decision, but the public doesn't have the right to prevent people from making bad decisions unless they present a danger to the general public.

I could support laws that prevent those who have already demonstrated a tendency to endanger the public with their bad decisions from owning a gun - and I would extend that to decisions that wouldn't exactly have any criminal extent. This isn't that much different than suspending a person's driving license for accumulating too many traffic violations or for a DUI and would be justified.

 

[Zlex]

From the perspective of someone who tries (but usually fails) to express precisely what he means, I find the US second amendment to be poorly constructed:

A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed..

Why put in the first clause at all? Is the "Militia" separate from "the people"? Does the right to bear arms apply to people who form a well regulated militia, or to people in general? If the latter, then why include the first clause at all?

Madison's original version of the second amendment went something like this:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well-armed and well-regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

This is even worse. Congress changed Madison's original version, and swapped the order of the "militia" clause and "right to bear arms" clause. I have no idea why they did that.

Another thing that confuses me is that the second amendment is not binding on the states, or in other words, the fourteenth amendment doesn't apply to it. So states can (and do) make any gun laws they like. There are cities and towns which have banned guns altogether.

I don't think it matters in the least how you define militia. Define them as feather wearing colonial times cabaret dancers.

The leading dependent clause merely lists one of possibly several benefits to the security of a free state of not infringing a pre-existing right of the people. It does not say 'For as long as a well-regulated militia...' nor does it say 'Only in the context of a well-regulated militia shall...'

IMO, in the context of the times, in which the 'regular' army was the trained, professional army, distinct from the general militia, the meaning of a 'well-regulated' militia meant a general populace already familiar with arms, to serve as a ready pool from which to train 'regulars' when the security of a free state required that. As well, the Articles are explicit about the right of the federal government not only to form regulars as needed, but to federalize even the militia. The 2ndA cannot refer to a militia right, or else it would absurdly prohibit the government from infringing the right to arm itself.

The 2ndA has both a dependent and independent clause. The dependent clause is expressing a benefit to the security of a free state, proved as recently as WWII, far beyond colonial times, and that is, the training of a 'regular' army from a populace already familiar with firearms aided the training/regulation of the militia into regulars.

But moot, because the wording does not even say 'for as long as that is the case' or anything like that. If folks want to repeal the 2nd Amendment, then they should argue why that is a good idea, not speciously claim that its independent clause is encumbered by some faulty interpretation of the benefit to the security of a free state enumerated in its dependent clause.

 

[Moonbear]

Gun laws, whether pro or anti gun, have almost no impact on crime rates or anyone's chances of being shot by any stranger. One could say that strong gun laws reduce the chance of accidental shooting and domestic shootings. They'd be right and their justification is just about as sound as mandatory seat belt laws, mandatory helmet laws, and many of the anti-smoking laws.

I think this is a good point. As I looked through some statistics last night, I realized that the numbers of children killed by accidentally being shot wasn't really all that different from numbers of children killed from accidental poisoning. I guess there are a lot of ways you could interpret it, including the two have no relation to one another. But, the way I interpreted it is that there are bad parents out there who don't take appropriate safeguards to protect their children from harm. The same ones who don't bother to lock up guns in the home are probably the same ones who don't bother to lock up the cleaning fluids and pesticides. There is a limit to what we can regulate to protect people from their own stupidity.

I could support laws that prevent those who have already demonstrated a tendency to endanger the public with their bad decisions from owning a gun - and I would extend that to decisions that wouldn't exactly have any criminal extent. This isn't that much different than suspending a person's driving license for accumulating too many traffic violations or for a DUI and would be justified.

I think this is where the early attempts at gun control sprouted from. This sounds like a very reasonable thing. If someone demonstrates they don't have good judgement and pose a threat of harm to others, we would like to protect others from them. This is really the purpose of laws in the first place, to protect the general public from those who have no common sense or proper judgement, or concern for safety, and put other people at risk because of it, whether intentional or accidental.

However, how do you regulate and restrict those who are a danger to others if you don't have some regulation in place that allows you to track people's use and distinguish between those who can and cannot safely own and operate a gun?

Also, how do you get the guns out of their possession without violating their protection against illegal search and seizure? For example, if you take someone's driver's license away, that says they are not allowed to operate a motor vehicle on public roadways. If they have a car on their property, and it never leaves their property, you can't take it away. If they want to drive around their own property and run over trees, they can still do that as far as I know (maybe some places have laws saying otherwise, but I don't know if they'd hold up if challenged). Likewise, if someone demonstrates they are unsafe operating a gun, but have not done anything criminal with one, can we stop them from owning one as long as they never take it out and attempt to use it? One could argue, I suppose, that because the bullet's trajectory will extend beyond their property, that they couldn't use it even on their own private property, but what if they live in the middle of a 50-acre farm? Again, if they want to shoot trees in the middle of their farm, no matter how odd or foolish that sounds to us, is there any reason to stop them from doing so?

I don't like the idea of allowing just anyone to have a firearm without some regulation and safety training to obtain one, but also have to recognize that it isn't a cut-and-dry issue, especially when it comes to enforcement of gun possession (as opposed to improper gun use).

I go back and forth on it all the time, because I'm not even sure if the second amendment really even addresses gun ownership, per se, or if it means the people can rise up against their government without being thrown in jail for it. Keep in mind, that's exactly what the Colonial's did, they rose up against their government and fought a war. That particular amendment very well may be saying that after the Civil War, Confederate soldiers couldn't be tossed in jail for attempting to use force to secede from the Union. I really think the "militia" clause is there for a reason.

However, regardless of what the second amendment says, we are also protected by the fourth amendment from having the government come in and seize our personal property, no matter how much others may not like us owning it. If it was legal to obtain when we obtained it, then there better be a very compelling reason (probable cause) why it should be taken away. This doesn't give anyone permission to USE firearms, but it means if you keep them safely stored in a gun cabinet on your property (or anywhere out of public view on your property), and do nothing more with them than periodically clean them, there is no reason anyone should go looking for them or take them away.

 

[selfAdjoint]

think this is where the early attempts at gun control sprouted from. This sounds like a very reasonable thing. If someone demonstrates they don't have good judgement and pose a threat of harm to others, we would like to protect others from them. This is really the purpose of laws in the first place, to protect the general public from those who have no common sense or proper judgement, or concern for safety, and put other people at risk because of it, whether intentional or accidental.

This is a good and thoughful post, and I don't disagree with it, but it raised some thoughts in my head and I will put them into comments on it.

However, how do you regulate and restrict those who are a danger to others if you don't have some regulation in place that allows you to track people's use and distinguish between those who can and cannot safely own and operate a gun?

At present there is a Federal Firearm Owner's ID, which is supposed to be registered in a database and updated every time the owner buys or sells a gun. They aren't tracking owners per se but guns, but it was supposed to have the advantage that anyone in several categories of "known to the police" would be unable to buy a gun. This aspect has not worked too well. Notoriously the Washington shipers were able to buy an illegal gun through a registered dealer.

And there was the case of a young man who went on a shooting spree against blacks ond asians in Illionois and Indiana. This fellow was able to buy guns openly in Illinois in spite of the fact that there was a protection order against him in Indiana, filed by a former girl friend who feared he was stalking her. This was apparently just a case of the data not getting into the database. The statute supporting the FOID was underfunded by Congress, and maintenance of the DB fell to the local police departments, who weren't able to afford to do it properly. So here is your ideal meeting reality.

Also, how do you get the guns out of their possession without violating their protection against illegal search and seizure? For example, if you take someone's driver's license away, that says they are not allowed to operate a motor vehicle on public roadways. If they have a car on their property, and it never leaves their property, you can't take it away. If they want to drive around their own property and run over trees, they can still do that as far as I know (maybe some places have laws saying otherwise, but I don't know if they'd hold up if challenged). Likewise, if someone demonstrates they are unsafe operating a gun, but have not done anything criminal with one, can we stop them from owning one as long as they never take it out and attempt to use it?

I don't know what you mean here. Like just leaving it out when there are kids around? If somebody files a complaint the police could get a warrant on that if they wanted, on endangerment.

One could argue, I suppose, that because the bullet's trajectory will extend beyond their property, that they couldn't use it even on their own private property, but what if they live in the middle of a 50-acre farm? Again, if they want to shoot trees in the middle of their farm, no matter how odd or foolish that sounds to us, is there any reason to stop them from doing so?

These issues are dealt with by laws on the books in most built-up areas. It is illegal - that is, a felony - to discharge a firearm in those places. And a felony like that can be a cause to take away the FOID.

I don't like the idea of allowing just anyone to have a firearm without some regulation and safety training to obtain one, but also have to recognize that it isn't a cut-and-dry issue, especially when it comes to enforcement of gun possession (as opposed to improper gun use).

It's interesting that either people have no right to own guns, on one interpretation of the second amendment, or else their right to do so is stronger than their right to drive. There is no right to drive specified in the Constitution, so that issue devolves to the states, per amendment ten. And they are free to set up any rules they choose, so we have driver ed and "points" and license fees. Likewise for licenses on cars.

But if the second amendment means that the "militia" is the law abiding citizens, then firearms ownership is a constitutional right, and the states have a lot less wiggle room to set up firearms ed or charge fees for licenses. It would go to the courts, and I presume would turn on interpretation of the phrase "well-regulated militia".

 

[Bystander]

cragwolf, that's why its my suspicion that it was purposely poorly writen.
(snip)

(snip)I think this is one of those issues that will never be resolved unless there is an amendment to the constitution defining better what is meant by a militia. Perhaps it's okay if everyone is permitted to keep a musket(snip)

(snip)I don't think it matters in the least how you define militia. Define them as feather wearing colonial times cabaret dancers.(snip)

(snip)But if the second amendment means that the "militia" is the law abiding citizens, then firearms ownership is a constitutional right, and the states have a lot less wiggle room to set up firearms ed or charge fees for licenses. It would go to the courts, and I presume would turn on interpretation of the phrase "well-regulated militia".(snip)

Amazing what you can do with a dictionary: "well" - properly done or executed; "regulated" - brought under control or rule of law or central authority; "militia" - the part of the male population subject to recruitment or conscription into military service. Need updating? Yup. They failed to include females, although that might be regarded as having been addressed in suffrage amendments.

Any other questions?

Compare Coffeyville, Kansas vs. the Dalton gang to LAPD vs. bankrobbers with bulletproof vests and assault rifles in terms of total numbers of people involved and mortality rates among malefactors and law-abiding citizens. Compare the income potential for ABA members today to that for lawyers (dunno when the ABA was established) 100 years ago vis a vis law enforcement involving use of firearms during commisions of felonies. Coffeyville would still be in court for violations of civil rights of a bunch of bank robbers, reckless endangerment of lawyers' incomes, discharging firearms within city limits or populated areas, failures to file environmental impact statements with the EPA concerning lead emissions, sulfur emissions, and NOX, and just generally making governmental and law enforcement services look as absolutely foolish, impotent, and inefficient as they are today.

 

[GENIERE]

From: http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm#con
Read it yourself – I’ve provided the conclusion

WHETHER THE SECOND AMENDMENT SECURES AN INDIVIDUAL RIGHT:

The Second Amendment secures a right of individuals generally, not a right of states or a right restricted to persons serving in militias.

August 24, 2004

Conclusion
For the foregoing reasons, we conclude that the Second Amendment secures an individual right to keep and to bear arms. Current case law leaves open and unsettled the question of whose right is secured by the Amendment. Although we do not address the scope of the right, our examination of the original meaning of the Amendment provides extensive reasons to conclude that the Second Amendment secures an individual right, and no persuasive basis for either the collective-right or quasi-collective-right views. The text of the Amendment’s operative clause, setting out a “right of the people to keep and bear Arms,” is clear and is reinforced by the Constitution’s structure. The Amendment’s prefatory clause, properly understood, is fully consistent with this interpretation. The broader history of the Anglo-American right of individuals to have and use arms, from England’s Revolution of 1688-1689 to the ratification of the Second Amendment a hundred years later, leads to the same conclusion. Finally, the first hundred years of interpretations of the Amendment, and especially the commentaries and case law in the pre-Civil War period closest to the Amendment’s ratification, confirm what the text and history of the Second Amendment require.
Please let us know if we may provide further assistance.

Steven G. Bradbury
Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General
Howard C. Nielson, Jr.
Deputy Assistant Attorney General
C. Kevin Marshall
Acting Deputy Assistant Attorney General

..

 

[franznietzsche]

San Francisco is proposing a law that will ban handguns for its residents excluding, of course, the police, military, security and other jobs that require one to own a handgun.

I can find no reason for anyone to have a handgun at home or even carry one around. I know this is a hot topic, but thought it would be interesting to see what others' opinions are on the subject.

For the general public:
Do you think people should own guns?
Do you think people need to own guns?
Do you think current gun control laws (Federal) are a true form of control? -- okay obviously I have a bias based on how the question is posed.

I can find a perfectly good reason to have one: Because the guy breaking into my house (already being a criminal) will. Its as simple as that.

Why ban hand guns? I can understand banning assault weapons, they're unnecessary for any self-defense pupose, there is a reason they are called "ASSAULT" weapons. But hand guns? Makes no sense to me, banning the category of gun that has the "least" lethal weapons, and the easiest to use for self defense (self defense with a rifle is not practical, and a shot gun is not a disabling weapon.)