I Scalar product and generalised coordinates

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The discussion centers on the equivalence of the scalar product expressions p·v and pivi in Hamiltonian mechanics, questioning whether this equivalence relies on the vectors being represented in an orthonormal basis. It is clarified that the inner product in R^n is defined independently of any basis, meaning p·v can be expressed as a summation of components without needing orthonormality. The conversation also touches on generalized coordinates, which can include angles, and emphasizes that the independence of these coordinates allows for the inner product to be expressed in a familiar diagonal sum form. Ultimately, the distinction between the generality of Hamiltonian mechanics and the specific conditions of 3D vector spaces is highlighted, asserting that the inner product's definition does not necessitate a basis. The conclusion is that the relationship between p·v and pivi is not merely a convention but is rooted in the fundamental properties of vector spaces.
  • #31
I don't know, what you mean by "standard basis". We have an Euclidean vector space ##V## with a scalar product. A Cartesian basis ##\vec{e}_i## fulfills by definition the propery ##\vec{e}_i \cdot \vec{e}_j=\delta_{ij}##, and each vector can be uniquely written in terms of linear combinations of these Cartesian basis vectors,
$$\vec{v}=v^j \vec{e}_j.$$
Here the Einstein summation convention is used, i.e., over equal indices you have to sum. The numbers ##v^j## are the components of the vector ##\vec{v}## wrt. the Cartesian basis.

For the scalar product of two vectors you get
$$\vec{v} \cdot \vec{w} = (v^j \vec{e}_j) \cdot (w^k \vec{e}_k)= v^j w^k \delta_{jk}=w^j v^j.$$
This holds for the components wrt. any Cartesian basis. There is not any special "standard basis".
 
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  • #32
hutchphd said:
For elements of a 3D vector space space your statement is correct.

The configuration space for the Hamiltonian is a more general beast.
Please read this carefully and then see if your questions are put in better context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_coordinates

The generalized coordinates for the Hamiltonian can be various. I believe they are required to be independent which always allows the inner product to be written in the familiar-looking diagonal sum. (This is stuff I learned 50 yrs ago so anybody feel free to correct me! )
This hints that the basis vectors are orthogonal which helps.

If i have 2 vectors a = aiei and b = biei then consider the basis vectors are not orthonormal then in the scalar product a.b i will end up with term like a1b2e1.e2 which means in this case a.b≠ aibi
 
  • #33
vanhees71 said:
For the scalar product of two vectors you get
vanhees71 said:
For the scalar product of two vectors you get
v→⋅w→=(vje→j)⋅(wke→k)=vjwkδjk=vjvj.
This holds for the components wrt. any Cartesian basis. There is not any special "standard basis".
I assume you mean ##\omega _j## in last

The "standard basis" is the name I was taught for the trivial set of n-tuples {(1,0,...,0),(0,1,...0),...(0,...,0,1)} associated with ##R^n## and the canonical coordinates.
 
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  • #34
Sure, I've corrected it in the posting above.
 

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