Scalar product and generalised coordinates

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the scalar product of vectors in Cartesian coordinates and their representation in generalized coordinates within Hamiltonian mechanics. Participants explore the implications of using orthonormal bases versus arbitrary bases when expressing the Hamiltonian and the inner product of generalized momenta and velocities.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the scalar product in Cartesian coordinates can be expressed as a.b = a_i b_i only when using an orthonormal basis.
  • Others argue that the inner product can be defined without the need for a specific basis, stating that elements of R^n are simply lists of numbers.
  • A participant questions whether the equivalence of p_i v_i and p.v in Hamiltonian mechanics is merely a convention, particularly when generalized coordinates may not have a clear basis.
  • Some participants clarify that generalized coordinates are required to be independent, which allows the inner product to be expressed in a familiar summation form.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of using different bases and how this affects the representation of vectors in Hamiltonian mechanics.
  • A participant mentions the Legendre transformation as a method for transforming between sets of independent variables in the context of Hamiltonian mechanics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the equivalence of p_i v_i and p.v in Hamiltonian mechanics depends on the basis being orthonormal. Some maintain that the inner product can be defined independently of any basis, while others emphasize the importance of orthonormality in specific contexts. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these differing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of generalized coordinates and their independence, as well as the conditions under which the inner product can be expressed in different forms. The relationship between generalized coordinates and their representation in Hamiltonian mechanics is also not fully clarified.

  • #31
I don't know, what you mean by "standard basis". We have an Euclidean vector space ##V## with a scalar product. A Cartesian basis ##\vec{e}_i## fulfills by definition the propery ##\vec{e}_i \cdot \vec{e}_j=\delta_{ij}##, and each vector can be uniquely written in terms of linear combinations of these Cartesian basis vectors,
$$\vec{v}=v^j \vec{e}_j.$$
Here the Einstein summation convention is used, i.e., over equal indices you have to sum. The numbers ##v^j## are the components of the vector ##\vec{v}## wrt. the Cartesian basis.

For the scalar product of two vectors you get
$$\vec{v} \cdot \vec{w} = (v^j \vec{e}_j) \cdot (w^k \vec{e}_k)= v^j w^k \delta_{jk}=w^j v^j.$$
This holds for the components wrt. any Cartesian basis. There is not any special "standard basis".
 
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  • #32
hutchphd said:
For elements of a 3D vector space space your statement is correct.

The configuration space for the Hamiltonian is a more general beast.
Please read this carefully and then see if your questions are put in better context:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_coordinates

The generalized coordinates for the Hamiltonian can be various. I believe they are required to be independent which always allows the inner product to be written in the familiar-looking diagonal sum. (This is stuff I learned 50 yrs ago so anybody feel free to correct me! )
This hints that the basis vectors are orthogonal which helps.

If i have 2 vectors a = aiei and b = biei then consider the basis vectors are not orthonormal then in the scalar product a.b i will end up with term like a1b2e1.e2 which means in this case a.b≠ aibi
 
  • #33
vanhees71 said:
For the scalar product of two vectors you get
vanhees71 said:
For the scalar product of two vectors you get
v→⋅w→=(vje→j)⋅(wke→k)=vjwkδjk=vjvj.
This holds for the components wrt. any Cartesian basis. There is not any special "standard basis".
I assume you mean ##\omega _j## in last

The "standard basis" is the name I was taught for the trivial set of n-tuples {(1,0,...,0),(0,1,...0),...(0,...,0,1)} associated with ##R^n## and the canonical coordinates.
 
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  • #34
Sure, I've corrected it in the posting above.
 

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