Scaling - Inverse relationship between uncertainty and mass

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SUMMARY

The forum discussion centers on the relationship between uncertainty and mass, specifically in the context of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Participants debate the validity of the "scaling hypothesis," which suggests that as mass increases, uncertainty decreases. Prof. Wolfson's definition of uncertainty, expressed as h: m Delta x Delta v > h, is scrutinized, with some arguing that the inclusion of Planck's constant (h) complicates the relationship. Ultimately, the consensus indicates that while there is a minimum uncertainty related to mass, the relationship is not straightforward, and the principle applies primarily to quantum scales.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle
  • Familiarity with Planck's constant and its significance in quantum mechanics
  • Knowledge of statistical theory, particularly standard deviations
  • Basic concepts of quantum mechanics, including wave-particle duality
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the mathematical foundations of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in quantum mechanics
  • Explore the implications of Planck's constant in quantum theory and its role in uncertainty
  • Investigate the concept of decoherence and its effects on quantum systems
  • Review literature on the scaling hypothesis and its critiques in quantum physics
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, students of quantum mechanics, and anyone interested in the foundational principles of uncertainty in physics will benefit from this discussion.

  • #31
Dave1939 said:
The Kindle version of this book is only $10.44 so I bought it for my library.

That reminded me - I have been meaning to get a copy as well and just got the Kindle edition.

I read a lot of more advanced texts on QM but enjoy those at a more elementary level.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #32
bhobba said:
Broadly yes. But its not from 'scaling' - which I don't understand your meaning of. It's because objects in the everyday world are constantly observed and decohered by the environment.

Bill, I think you are owed an explanation of what I mean by scaling. What follows is a few quotes and a paraphrasing of Brian Greene’s comments on page 97 of The Fabric of the Cosmos.

The uncertainty as to momentum and location of an electron and that of a car are vastly different. The Heisenberg principle not only declares the uncertainty of knowing anything about an electron’s momentum when its position is known, “it also specifies - with complete certainty - the minimum amount of uncertainty in any situation”. I take this to mean that at the macroscopic scale we can know both momentum and location with negligible uncertainty. Hence, uncertainty is a function of scale or as you say environment; things like the electron are clearly subject to the uncertainty principle and things like a car, not so much - scaling.

As to the scaling connection to the inverse relationship between mass and uncertainty, the mass of an electron is magnitudes of difference from that of a car. To illustrate this, Green says: “In day-to-day life we routinely speak about things like a car passing a particular stop sign (position) while traveling at 90 miles per hour (velocity).” He goes on to say, I paraphrase, such talk has no precise meaning in QM as we cannot simultaneously measure a definite speed and a definite position. Yet, we get away with this technically incorrect statement because on macroscopic scales the amount of uncertainty is tiny and generally unnoticed or unfelt. He says the position of the speeding car as it passes the stop sign is known within a centimeter and the uncertainty in speed is just shy of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a billionth of a mile per hour.

To consider what happens on microscopic scales, replace the massive car with an almost massless electron having a known position within a billionth of a meter (almost certain), then the uncertainty in its speed would be a whopping 100,000 miles per hour. Scaling changes the amount of uncertainty we get when measuring things; on microscopic scales it is very apparent but this is not the case on macroscopic scales. In Greene's own words: "Uncertainty is always present, but it becomes significant only on microscopic scales.

This is probably another example of a physicist writing for a popular audience who sacrifices exactness for simplicity but surely not, I hope, to the extent of saying something that is wrong. Probably, like Prof Wolfson, it is a reasonable approximation of uncertainty that is good enough for philosophers but not physics students.
 
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