Schwarzschild Orbits in Cartesian coordinates

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the challenge of expressing Schwarzschild orbits in Cartesian coordinates, particularly in the context of a Java applet gravity simulator. Participants explore the feasibility of this approach compared to traditional polar coordinates, addressing both theoretical and practical implications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes their Java applet that simulates gravity and expresses interest in reformulating Schwarzschild orbits in Cartesian coordinates for better understanding of gravity theories.
  • Another participant provides a detailed mathematical breakdown of transforming the Schwarzschild metric into Cartesian coordinates, including equations and substitutions.
  • Some participants argue that Cartesian coordinates are not applicable to black holes, suggesting isotropic coordinates as a more appropriate alternative.
  • There is a discussion about the simplicity of using geodesic equations in Schwarzschild coordinates compared to isotropic coordinates, with one participant asserting that the geodesic equations can be expressed similarly to Newton's equations.
  • One participant questions the utility of converting to Cartesian coordinates, asking how it would enhance understanding of the differences between gravity theories.
  • Another participant emphasizes the challenges of working with non-flat space-times and the limitations of Cartesian coordinates in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of Cartesian coordinates to black hole physics, with some asserting that they are not suitable while others explore the idea. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to reformulate the orbits.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the definitions of coordinates and the unresolved nature of the mathematical transformations involved in the discussion.

Is Carl going to find the Schwarzschild orbits in Cartesian DE form?


  • Total voters
    14
  • #61
MeJennifer said:
Exiting! When can we see the working applet?

Here it is:
http://www.gaugegravity.com/testapplet/SweetGravity.html

I'd have put it up yesterday, but it still had the debug prints turned on and I didn't have protection against division by zero at the singularity.

The Painleve orbits are labeled as "gauge" because the purpose of the applet is to show off the gauge gravity equations. The Schwarzschild coordinates are labeled "Einstein".

The Schwarzschild and Painleve orbits are similar but not quite identical. I can make them identical by correcting the initial conditions. That is the initial conditions for (coordinate) velocity:

\left. \frac{dx}{dt}\right|_0

means different things for Schwarzschild and Painleve coordinates because t is different between them. I'm contemplating adding a button to the applet that will change the initial conditions for Schwarzschild to match the Painleve or vice versa.

By the way, if you look around in the literature, you will find formulas for approximate relativistic corrections to Newton's equations of motion. What I've computed here are the exact relativistic corrections to Newton's equations of motion. After I do the rotating black hole in Doran coordinates I will publish this.

Here are some papers talking about 1st order corrections to Newton:

http://www.numdam.org/numdam-bin/fitem?id=AIHPA_1985__43_1_107_0
http://www.obs-azur.fr/gemini/pagesperso/pireaux/proc/SCRMI_integrator.pdf
http://syrte.obspm.fr/journees2004/PDF/Pireaux.pdf
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986IAUS..114..105N

[Latest Update]: The equations take the form of a ratio of two quantities. In post #53 I factored the denominator factors into:

4 \;I \;\left(4I - \left(\frac{\partial I}{\partial \dot{x}}\frac{\partial I}{\partial \dot{y}}\right)^2\right)

As usual, this is wrong. The correct factorization is:

4 \;I \;\left(4I - \left(\frac{\partial I}{\partial \dot{x}}\right)^2 - \left(\frac{\partial I}{\partial \dot{y}}\right)^2\right)

It turns out that the complicated part of the factorization simplifies to -4. Thus the denominator is:

-16 I

I've now factored the I out of the numerator. Consequently I have a set of equations that have no singularities other than at the origin. The numerator is still messy, but probably can be simplified (which I'm doing).
[/Latest Update]

Carl
 
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  • #62
From reducing the equations of motion, it's pretty clear that your life is easier if you write your Painleve metric in the following fashion:

ds^2 = \left(dx + \sqrt{2}xr^{-1.5}\;dt\right)^2 +<br /> \left(dy + \sqrt{2}yr^{-1.5}\;dt\right)^2 +<br /> \left(dz + \sqrt{2}zr^{-1.5}\;dt\right)^2 - dt^2

Then the calculations end up using terms like \dot{x}+\sqrt{2}xr^{-1.5}, which in the river vernacular is the velocity relative to the river. For example, if x and \dot{x} are both positive, then you are climbing out of the black hole and swimming against the stream. Therefore the relative velocity is increased.

I've got the terms fairly well reduced and well behaved, but I suspect that if I play with them for a little longer I'll get them much better.

Carl
 
  • #63
Based on all the reports that I have received, this thread has been going in the wrong path for a long time.

If you wish to continue, please do so in the IR forum.

Zz.
 

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