News Scwarzenegger announces veto on Californian gay marriage bill

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The discussion revolves around Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger's veto of a same-sex marriage bill, highlighting the tension between his political alignment and personal beliefs. Participants speculate that Schwarzenegger's decision may stem from pressure within the Republican Party, suggesting he prioritized party loyalty over personal convictions to secure his position. The conversation shifts to the broader implications of marriage equality, with arguments for and against the recognition of same-sex unions, including concerns about children's welfare and the role of government in marriage. Participants debate whether the government should regulate marriage at all, with some advocating for civil unions that grant the same rights without the marriage label. The discussion also touches on the historical context of marriage, discrimination against LGBTQ+ individuals, and the societal impact of recognizing diverse relationship structures. Overall, the thread reflects a complex interplay of political strategy, personal beliefs, and societal norms regarding marriage and equality.
  • #91
faust9 said:
Can you supply data supporting your position that gay couple cannot give longterm support to children? Can you support your position that longterm stability is acheived when there is a near 50% divorce rate among married adults? Can you provide a scientiffic study showing gay couple somehow abuse or damage children at a rate higher than heterosexual males? Can you? I think not.
It appears the data available is too scant to draw conclusions one way or the other
A Marriage Made in History?
By Don Browning and Elizabeth Marquardt
New York Times, March 9, 2004

CHICAGO — Both supporters and opponents of same-sex marriage make their case with hypothetical arguments about its social effects and claims about the history of marriage. Unfortunately, we know next to nothing about the first subject, and proponents of same-sex marriage have mischaracterized the second.

The body of sociological knowledge about same-sex parenting is scant at best. The numbers of gays and lesbians raising children are so small relative to the population, and their visibility so recent, that there are no rigorous, large-scale studies on the effect of same-sex marriage on the couples' children.

Steven Nock, a leading scholar of marriage at the University of Virginia, wrote in March 2001 after a thorough review that every study on this question "contained at least one fatal flaw" and "not a single one was conducted according to generally accepted standards of scientific research." Is it wise, then, to develop social policies that go to the heart of family life without better knowledge?
http://www.americanvalues.org/html/marriage_history.html
 
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  • #92
arildno said:
Since your argument didn't include anything specifically human that is not present among bonobos, your argument is invalidated by the fact that bonobos live perfectly well in a totally different manner than us.

They are not us. Bonobos live perfectly well using a sticks to gather termites from dead logs.

You are trying to use one varity of Chimp to try to disprove the evolution of man and the family unit?? Not very scientific.
 
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  • #93
arildno said:
Nonsensical blather, which is irrelevant besides.

Ah, an irrefutable argument :-)

Well, look at this, just a random selection of works on the issue:
The Descent of Man is a much more daring book than The Origin of Species, yet Browne downplays its radicalism, presenting it largely as an endorsement of the Victorian status quo. And so for Browne, Darwin "believed that biology supported the marriage bond," and "although he rejected the outward trappings of the established Anglican religion, he subscribed wholeheartedly to its underlying values and the presumed onward march of civilization." Again, "the 'higher' values were, for him, self-evidently the values of his own class and nation." Although Browne doesn't praise Darwin's purported use of biology to reinforce conventional mores and gender roles, today many on the Right do. Browne's reading explains (albeit unintentionally) why these modern conservatives find Darwin so attractive. Longing for a way to defend traditional mores, they are entranced to learn that Darwinism may supply a biological basis for them.

Unfortunately, Browne's reading doesn't do justice to Darwin's full argument. While it's perfectly true that in The Descent of Man Darwin claims that some traditional virtues are sanctioned by nature, he also shows that a great many traditional vices are grounded there as well. Kindness may be natural according to Darwin, but so is cruelty and lust. Maternal instinct is natural, but so is infanticide. Monogamy is natural, but much more so is polygamy. Courage is natural, but so is cowardice. Care toward family members is natural, but so is euthanasia of the feeble, even if they happen to be one's parents (here Darwin mentions the practice some primitives have of burying their sick parents alive). If Darwin provides some examples of virtue in nature, he also presents nature's shocking immoralities.

What eventually becomes clear in The Descent of Man is that Darwin's view of nature points not to Aristotle or Aquinas, but to Thomas Hobbes. Nature may on occasion sanction certain traditional virtues, not because these virtues are intrinsically good, but only because at the moment they happen to promote biological survival. If circumstances should change, and these virtues no longer promoted survival, then for Darwin they would cease to be virtues. In the end, the only permanent and unchanging moral imperative is the drive for self-preservation.

from:
http://www.claremont.org/writings/crb/spring2004/jwest.html
 
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  • #94
Art said:
I think where I and other people have reservations is where gay couples insist on a 'right' of going through the same religious church ceremony as hetro couples.
They don't have that in Norway. Individual priests have, however, chosen to give a "blessing" to the few gay partners (we're partners in Norway, not wedded)
I also don't think it would be right to force religions to perform such ceremonies against their beliefs
A point where we are in full agreement.
 
  • #95
Is it wise, then, to develop social policies that go to the heart of family life without better knowledge?

Why should the government be involved in developing social policies? If we let that happen then pretty soon all of America would be in church on sunday morning...

As far as I am concerned, the less the government is involved the better...
 
  • #96
Art said:
I think where I and other people have reservations is where gay couples insist on a 'right' of going through the same religious church ceremony as hetro couples.

You're working under the idea that marriage is a religious ceremony. I am an atheist. So is my wife.
 
  • #97
Townsend said:
Why should the government be involved in developing social policies?

In the long term national security is affected by social policies.
 
  • #98
vanesch said:
Ah, an irrefutable argument :-)

Well, look at this, just a random selection of works on the issue:


from:
http://www.claremont.org/writings/crb/spring2004/jwest.html
Socio-biological "explanations" of human behaviour is patently false.
To take just a single point:
The turn-over rate of social customs is so fast that to say that human behaviour is dominantly determined by evolutionary concerns, is just sheer nonsense.
But, when you accept that it isn't a dominant factor, then you've stepped out of the explanatory constraints set by a strictly Darwinian theory.
 
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  • #99
edward said:
In the long term national security is affected by social policies.

What is the purpose of national security?
 
  • #100
faust9 said:
Can you supply data supporting your position that gay couple cannot give longterm support to children?

Can you supply data of where I claimed that ??

Can you support your position that longterm stability is acheived when there is a near 50% divorce rate among married adults?

There are sociobiological reasons for that too!

Can you provide a scientiffic study showing gay couple somehow abuse or damage children at a rate higher than heterosexual males? Can you? I think not.

Did I say so ??
 
  • #101
vanesch said:
Can you supply data of where I claimed that ??



There are sociobiological reasons for that too!



Did I say so ??

Education of the youngsters is not such a high burden with bonobos as with humans, so a long-term stability of the couple to raise kids has no advantage in this case. It is the investment over several years needed to successfully raise kids which induce the necessary stability of the couple, which needs to invest very strongly in that, and should only do that if there is a serious Darwinian advantage attached to it.
Interbreeding small groups of individuals can raise kids collectively if this is not a heavy burden, but when it comes down to long-term investments, you better only concentrate on those in which you have a high genetic content.

Your assertion of stability is ungrounded IMHO.
 
  • #102
TRCSF said:
You're working under the idea that marriage is a religious ceremony. I am an atheist. So is my wife.
:confused: No I'm not far from it. I thought I had clearly defined the role of civil unions.

In fact I don't know about the US but in the UK and Ireland the only way you can get legally married is by the state. After going through the religious part and the priest pronounces you man and wife you are still not legally married in the eyes of the state until you sign the civil register.
 
  • #103
Townsend said:
What is the purpose of national security?
To protect the rights and freedoms of its citizens, no ?

<not my turn ?...sorry>
 
  • #104
Art said:
:confused: No I'm not far from it. I thought I had clearly defined the role of civil unions.

In fact I don't know about the US but in the UK and Ireland the only way you can get legally married is by the state. After going through the religious part and the priest pronounces you man and wife you are still not legally married in the eyes of the state until you sign the civil register.

We are not in a country with an official religion. Strawman! Marriage is a contract in the united states---that's it.
 
  • #105
faust9 said:
We are not in a country with an official religion. Strawman! Marriage is a contract in the united states---that's it.
Wha... ? :confused: Am I missing a point you are making here?
 
  • #106
arildno said:
Socio-biological "explanations" of human behaviour is patently false.
To take just a single point:
The turn-over rate of social customs is so fast that to say that human behaviour is dominantly determined by evolutionary concerns, is just sheer nonsense.
But, when you accept that it isn't a dominant factor, then you've stepped out of the explanatory constraints set by a strictly Darwinian theory.

Human behaviour is not of course completely explained by purely genetic considerations, they only give you AVERAGE tendencies over time scales long enough to have an evolutionary influence. The turn-over rate you talk about are the statistical fluctuations around those long-term averages. So everything that happens only on a time scale of a few hundred years or less will not play a significant role, and it plays less and less a role because our society becomes so terribly complex that it is difficult to say what pattern of behaviour will result in better gene transfer.
So all you can deduce from sociobiology for our species are traditions that must have been the same since we were hunters-gatherers and early civilisations. One of these traditions is the 1-man 1-woman (with some adultery :-) relation, raising their kids (at least for a few years). I only wanted to explain why that tradition is so much ancred in our, well, traditions. Not that things SHOULD be that way. Just why traditionally they were considered to be "good".
 
  • #107
It is the investment over several years needed to successfully raise kids which induce the necessary stability of the couple, which needs to invest very strongly in that, and should only do that if there is a serious Darwinian advantage attached to it.

1. The dinks are continuing to rise in numbers...my wife and I will always be dinks

2. There is no shortage of people in the world. In fact I would say some countries could use a lot more homosexuality. Heck, the whole world could use a lot more homosexuals...

The problem is that people are not evolving through any process of natural selection. A mentally retarded person who would not likely generate offspring 10k years ago now has a better chance of producing offspring than a lot of normal, intelligent people do.

In fact overpopulation is a good reason to bring down the institution of marriage, if the purpose of marriage is in fact to foster a family.
 
  • #108
Art said:
Wha... ? :smile: Am I missing a point you are making here?

The point I'm making is you are trying to tie religion to the word marriage while still allowing for "civil Unions". To bolster your stance you used the Uk as an example to wit I stated we are not in the UK we are in the US. California is not bound by the laws of the UK it is bound by the laws of the US. The laws within the US hold that marriage is a contract---nothing religious---so seperating marriage and civil unions in name only is stupid. They are the same thing just different names so why bother? Because civil unions can be looked down upon(seperate but equal all over again)...
 
  • #109
arildno said:
Socio-biological "explanations" of human behaviour is patently false.
To take just a single point:
The turn-over rate of social customs is so fast that to say that human behaviour is dominantly determined by evolutionary concerns, is just sheer nonsense.
But, when you accept that it isn't a dominant factor, then you've stepped out of the explanatory constraints set by a strictly Darwinian theory.

Well, I don't think it's patently false. It's not a rigorous science, but that doesn't mean it's patently false. In fact, I think it's as good an explanation for human behaviour as any thing else.

Sure, some customs change over time in different societies.

And there are some customs that always stay true regardless of society. e.g. incest is social taboo in every single society (with only very rare exceptions, the very poor and the very rich), the presence of homosexuality, etc.
 
  • #110
Gokul43201 said:
To protect the rights and freedoms of its citizens, no ?

<not my turn ?...sorry>

That's what I thought.

Isn't constructing laws to govern society's social policies more like taking away peoples rights and freedoms?
 
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  • #111
faust9 said:
Your assertion of stability is ungrounded IMHO.

Care to illuminate your opinion ? This has been studied you know...

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=101966008

From the intro:

I am an identical twin. By the time I was four or five, I had begun to notice grown-ups staring at my twin sister and me as they asked us questions. Did I know when Lorna was in trouble? Did we like the same toys? Did I ever think I was Lorna? I remember sitting in the backseat of the family car and comparing hands. We laughed alike and still do. We both like risk, although we display it very differently. She is a hot-air-balloon pilot in Colorado, whereas I discuss emotionally charged issues such as adultery and divorce on television and the podium. She is also an artist. She paints large canvases with tiny bruslistrokes, whereas I move tiny words across hundreds of manuscript pages. Both are jobs that require patience and attention to details. And we both work alone.

So as a child I started, quite unconsciously, to weigh my behavior: How much of it was inherited? How much of it was learned?

Then, in graduate school, I discovered the "nature/nurture" debate. John Locke's concept of the "tabula rasa," or empty tablet, was particularly troubling. Was every infant really a blank sheet of paper on which culture inscribed personality? I didn't believe it.

Then I read Jane Goodall's book In the Shadow of Man, about the wild chimpanzees of Tanzania. These creatures bad different personalities, and they made friends, held hands, kissed, gave one another gifts of leaves and twigs, and mourned when a companion died. I was overcome by the emotional continuity between man and beast. And I became convinced that some of my behavior was biological in origin. So this book is about the innate aspects of sex and love and marriage, those mating traits and tendencies that we inherited from our past. Human behavior is a complex mixture of environmental and hereditary forces and I do not wish to minimize the power of culture in influencing human action. But it is the genetic contributions to behavior that have always intrigued me.

The book began on a New York subway. I was pouring over American marriage statistics and I noticed some peculiar patterns to divorce. I wondered if these same patterns might appear in other cultures. So I looked at divorce data on sixty-two societies contained in the demographic yearbooks of the United Nations; there I found some similar curious designs. Then I examined data on adultery in forty-two cultures. And when I compared these worldwide figures on human bonding with patterns of monogamy, "cheating," and desertion in birds and nonhuman mammals, I found some similarities so compelling that they led me to a general theory for the evolution of human sex and family life.

Why do we marry? Why are some of us adulterous? Why do human beings divorce? Why do we remarry and try our luck again? The book begins with chapters on the nature of courting, infatuation, monogamy, adultery, and divorce. Then, starting in chapter 6, I dial back to the beginning of human social life and trace the evolution of our sexuality from its inception on the grasslands of East Africa some four million years ago, through life among the cave painters of Ice Age Europe and on into contemporary times, both in the West and more "exotic" places.

In the course of presenting my theories, I examine why we fall in love with one person rather than another, the experience of love at first sight, the physiology of attachment and philandering, why men have large penises and women display permanently enlarged breasts, gender differences in the brain, the evolution of "women, men, and power," the genesis of teenage, the origin of our conscience, and many other creations of our human sexual impulse. Finally, in the last chapter, I use all these data to make some predictions about "relationships" tomorrow and, if we survive as a species, millennia from now.

But first a few caveats. Along the way I make many generalizations. Neither your behavior nor mine fits all of the patterns I will describe. Why should it? There is no reason to expect a tight correlation between all human actions and general rules of human nature. I focus on the predominant patterns, rather than on the exceptions.

Moreover, I make no effort to be "politically correct." Nature designed men and women to work together. But I cannot pretend that they are alike. They are not alike. And I have given evolutionary and biological explanations for their differences where I find them appropriate.

I have also resisted some fads in anthropology. It is at present unpopular, for example, to use the !Kung Bushmen of southern Africa as a model for reconstructing life in our hunting-gathering past. My reasons for continuing to use their society as a model are laid out in one of many endnotes that I hope you will have time to read.

Most alarming to some readers, I discuss the possible genetic components and adaptive features of complicated, controversial, and often highly painful social behaviors such as adultery and divorce. I am certainly not advocating infidelity or desertion; rather, I am trying to understand these disturbing facts of human life.

Last, I am an ethologist, one who is interested in the genetic aspects of behavior. Ethologists have, as Margaret Mead once said of the anthropological perspective, a "way of seeing." In my view, human beings have a common nature, a set of shared unconscious tendencies or potentialities that are encoded in our DNA and that evolved because they were of use to our forebears millions of years ago. We are not aware of these predispositions, but they still motivate our actions.

I do not think, however, that we are puppets of our genes, that our DNA determines our behavior. On the contrary, culture sculpts innumerable and diverse traditions from our common human genetic material; then individuals respond to their environment and heredity in idiosyncratic ways that philosophers have long attributed to "free will."

In our drive to understand ourselves, we first studied the sun and moon and stars, then the plants and animals around us. Only in the past two centuries have we scientifically examined our social networks and our minds. Victorians put books by male and female authors on separate shelves. Sex researcher Alfred Kinsey made his pioneering studies of American sexuality as recently as the 1950s. And academics have only just begun to inspect the genetic undercurrents of human mating practices. So this book is an attempt to explore the nature of our romantic lives.

There is magic to love—as poets and sweethearts know. I don't pretend to penetrate this sanctum. But our sexual imperatives are tangible, knowable. And I firmly believe that the better we come to understand our human heritage, the greater will be our power over it and the stronger our free will.
 
  • #112
I'm not sure if there is a gene that encodes for bisexuality or homosexuality or heterosexuality, but in either case it would be interesting to find out in a few dozen years. Until then all of your remarks are pretty much pointless and have no meaning or value - considering the implications of such genes on human genome and its sustained existence

The question could, however, remain regarding the current population and their preference for specific minority groups. Do we really need to bring this fuss up and mix it in same bowl with religion, BGLTs, different races, and different classes? If you really want peace on Earth why not start with Mexico, India, and China controlling their population and perhaps we'd talk less about those pathetic issues like gay marriage or abortion rights
 
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  • #113
vanesch said:
Care to illuminate your opinion ? This has been studied you know...

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=101966008

From the intro:

Too bad you can't read it; moreover, scientiffic studies do not include the following:

15 "Till Death Us Do Part"
Birth of Western Double Standards

To have and to hold from this day forward, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death us do part.

—Book of Common Prayer ( 1549)

Thwack, thwack, thwack. A giant willow crackled, swayed, then thundered down beside the lake. Trout, perch, pike, chub, and catfish sped below the lily pads and darted among the bulrushes that lined the lake with marsh. A forest boar dashed, stricken, from the underbrush. Ducks and geese and mud hens lifted, flapping, from the reeds. Two otters froze, listening, among the cattails. Someone new was in the woods.

By 5000 b.c. central Europe was strewn with ponds and lakes and streams, signatures of massive glaciers that had retreated north some five thousand years earlier. Surrounding these glacial footprints were deep, thick forests. First birches and pines had spread across the grass. Then oaks, elms, spruce, and fir trees appeared. And by 5000 b.c. beech trees, chestnut trees, ashes, and maples cloaked the river valleys. Where oak trees spread their limbs, light bathed the forest
 
  • #114
faust9 said:
The point I'm making is you are trying to tie religion to the word marriage while still allowing for "civil Unions". To bolster your stance you used the Uk as an example to wit I stated we are not in the UK we are in the US. California is not bound by the laws of the UK it is bound by the laws of the US. The laws within the US hold that marriage is a contract---nothing religious---so seperating marriage and civil unions in name only is stupid. They are the same thing just different names so why bother? Because civil unions can be looked down upon(seperate but equal all over again)...
If you read my posts you will see California is the same as the UK and Ireland then in relation to marriage and you would also see that I have never said anything about whether or not the civil union gays, or hetros for that matter, go through should be called a marriage. So what was that you were saying about creating strawman arguments? :rolleyes:
 
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  • #115
Townsend said:
That's what I thought.

Isn't constructing laws to govern society's social policies more like taking away peoples rights and freedoms?

Unless it's a law constructed to give people rights that were not being protected.
 
  • #116
Just a few quick point to make, which I'm sure will be overlooked since this thread seems to be moving so fast.

The original article posted has some blatantly misleading opinions. Arnold is not doing this to pander to the "far-right." He is doing this to pander to the majority of California voters, who already passed a referendum precluding the recognition of homosexual marriages. Arnold is and has always been a populist governor, using the initiative and referendum system more than any other governor in memory. Part of the reason he does this is that he was elected through the initiative system to begin with. The other is that the legislature in California has been notoriously ineffective over the last decade or so, failing to deliver budgets on time, constantly deadlocking and refusing to actually pass any legislation that didn't pander to what might be called the "far-left." Gerrymandering has been so bad in the state that it is impossible to get elected in a majority of districts without appealing to a very liberal sector of the populace that does not represent the actual majority. As a consequence, whereas most voting citizens of the state do not want the recognition of homosexual marriages, most legislators do. Represenation in the state assembly and senate is not doled out evenly.

With that out of the way, my personal position on this is the same as Townsend's. The idea that the government can grant someone the right to form a lifelong union with someone that they love is completely absurd to me. The historical evolution of marriage as a western institution can get a little muddled, as it comes largely from two sources. The ancient Greeks married purely as a means of producing legitimate, state-sanctioned heirs, who could inherit the husband's property. There was no love involved whatsoever; in fact, the idea of a Greek man loving anything other than another Greek man (and usually a Greek boy) was absurd to them. Women were uneducated non-persons that a man could never have any real rapport with. To paraphrase Creon in Antigone, 'there are many other fields he could plow.' A woman was nothing more than a soilbed in which to plant one's seed.

The other concept of marriage from which the western institution has arisen is the Christian conception. I don't know as much about Christianity as I do about the Greeks, but the idea seems to be that one forms a lifelong union with another, whom one loves, to become "one flesh," a single spiritual entity. This single spiritual entity came to be a single legal entity as the Church wove its dogmas into the pagan traditions of pre-medieval Europe, which had inherited from the Greeks the concept of using marriage to produce legitimate heirs. As Arildno points out, this Christian conception was heavily bastardized in the process, as there was in fact no single legal or spiritual entity created. Women still had no rights (unless they were royalty), and the purpose remained to create heirs and to join lands together. Inter-kingdom marriages became a means of creating peace and expanding one's territorial holdings.

It should be clear why the conception legally had to be between one man and one woman. Only a male/female pairing can produce a child, and if multiple partners were allowed, there would be doubt as to which children were the legitimate heirs of which fathers. There is no reason for this conception of the pairing beyond that. In fact, from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the Christian conception did not scripturally forbid the love between man and man. It only admonished their lying together as if with a woman. While the idea of love without sex seems strange to us, the biblical conception of love doesn't seem to have much to do with physical lust. In fact, the two seem to be intentionally separated. Lust is a concern of the flesh, whereas love is a purely spiritual thing. The reasoning behind the forbidding of homosexual sex seems to be nothing more than the reasoning behind the forbidding of pre-marital or even just non-procreative sex. Sex was not something to be enjoyed and done for its own purpose. Sex was to be performed only with the intention of creating a child. As homosexual sex could not do this, it was forbidden.

The modern-day conservative argument that we can extrapolate from all this that there is any moral reason to keep marriage as being an institution involving only one man and one woman is absurd. We need real arguments, not simply appeals to tradition and history. The historical reasons for having state-sanctioned marriage at all are gone. The children of any property-owner are the legal inheritors of that person's property whether or not they are legitimately born, and inheritance is not doled out according to birth order; it is doled out according to written wills. We no longer have any feudal system whereby land possessions can be expanded through marriage, and we generally do not have arranged marriages in the first place. The whole idea that the state should sanction marriage because it is beneficial to society to have long-term monogamous couple raising children doesn't seem to be working, either. Let's face it; take one look at the divorce rate and you can see that giving tax benefits is not keeping people together. The modern conception of marriage is strictly that of one person loving another for the rest of their lives. Why should the government grant us the right to love someone? That is not their right to grant.
 
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  • #117
I think it's funny that now that people are demanding that homosexuals be allowed to marry, that people are now saying that marriage shouldn't be a function of the state.

As if they had a problem with marriage before homosexuals demanded the right.

It reminds me of those after school programs. The Chess Club, for example. Homosexual students demand the right to be allowed to participate in the Chess Club, and they win the court case, so the school just decides it's going to ban the Chess Club for everybody.

It strikes me as homophobic as any action, and is particularly cowardly.
 
  • #118
loseyourname said:
The original article posted has some blatantly misleading opinions. Arnold is not doing this to pander to the "far-right." He is doing this to pander to the majority of California voters, who already passed a referendum precluding the recognition of homosexual marriages.

That implies the majority of Californians are bigots. That would be a shame.

Well, thank god the majority can't repress the minority forever.

Back in the seventies, the vast majority of whites were against interracial marriages.
 
  • #119
I would add one modification, which is at one time inheritance passed through the maternal line because it could not be disputed who the mother was.

TRCSF said:
I think it's funny that now that people are demanding that homosexuals be allowed to marry, that people are now saying that marriage shouldn't be a function of the state.

As if they had a problem with marriage before homosexuals demanded the right.

It reminds me of those after school programs. The Chess Club, for example. Homosexual students demand the right to be allowed to participate in the Chess Club, and they win the court case, so the school just decides it's going to ban the Chess Club for everybody.

It strikes me as homophobic as any action, and is particularly cowardly.
That's in reference to prop 200, and keeping in mind that California traditionally has been a liberal (blue) state with a significant gay population in the SF area, if it hasn't passed there, then where? I think the only state where gay marriage is legal is Massachusetts?

In any event, I see a little difference between this debate and the Chess Club example. As discussed above, the majority of Americans believe in the individual right to lifestyle choices, and as was seen in the Schiavo case, most Americans don't support government intervention in private matters--the flip side being that government-sanctioned laws also represent intervention. Of course many Christians can't see this contradiction, and feel tolerance does not mean condone (like filling birth control prescriptions against one's beliefs). Not that this is my personal position.
 
  • #120
TRCSF said:
I think it's funny that now that people are demanding that homosexuals be allowed to marry, that people are now saying that marriage shouldn't be a function of the state.

As if they had a problem with marriage before homosexuals demanded the right.

It reminds me of those after school programs. The Chess Club, for example. Homosexual students demand the right to be allowed to participate in the Chess Club, and they win the court case, so the school just decides it's going to ban the Chess Club for everybody.

It strikes me as homophobic as any action, and is particularly cowardly.
Perhaps many people didn't think much of the legality of marriage. I myself for a long time did not intended to ever get married and so the thoughts never really occurred to me. Once the debate is brought up of constitutional rights regarding marriage though then one will begin to think on it.

This also necessitates consideration of the precident set that could allow for polygamy if you use equal protection as the cornerstone of your arguement. Polygamists fall under equal protection too. As to empirical evidence that polygamy is not a healthy practice, please show us. Also let us know if your empirical evidence distinguishes between those that are involved in a polygamous relationship knowingly and willingly. I think you only hurt your argument by descriminating against others looking for their marriage rights aswell. Ofcourse it helps you politically to deny those rights to others just as it helps Arnold politically to deny them to same sex couples.(this last part wasn't directed at you TRCSF)
 
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