News Scwarzenegger announces veto on Californian gay marriage bill

[vanesch]

Perhaps many people didn't think much of the legality of marriage. I myself for a long time did not intended to ever get married and so the thoughts never really occurred to me. Once the debate is brought up of constitutional rights regarding marriage though then one will begin to think on it.

Well, I *do* think that there is a "legal" function to marriage, union, whatever one calls it, which has to do with taking into consideration that certain people happen to have a close relationship, which changes the natural context of their relations in legal matters. Their legal relations should then not be exactly the same as between two random strangers.
As has been pointed out here, simple things like visiting right in hospitals (I don't see why just any stranger should be allowed to come and visit - and annoy - me in hospital, but I'd think it to be perfectly normal to have my wife near me), or inheritance rights (if you've lived together for a long time and you've worked together to buy a house, I don't see why you should, upon death of one of the two, have to pay huge taxes to herit half of the house for instance), or some administrative advantages (for instance, all other things equal, having a preference in job location assignments that keep the couple geographically together) and other stuff. It is just a recognition by society that these people have their life together, which is something that can change the application of law in certain cases for the best of everybody. There's no point in having, for instance, a married couple, both in public service, and - if this is possible and doesn't infringe on the rights of others - assign one to a job in one city and the other one in a city 500 km from there. I mean, if you can avoid doing that, why make people unhappy ? But in order to do so, it is normal to assign a legal status to this fact that those people ARE together.
And I fully agree that the sexual nature (and hence the sex of the individuals) of the relationship is no-one's business. But I also claim that the NUMBER of participants, in that case, should be free.

This also necessitates consideration of the precident set that could allow for polygamy if you use equal protection as the cornerstone of your arguement. Polygamists fall under equal protection too. As to empirical evidence that polygamy is not a healthy practice, please show us. Also let us know if your empirical evidence distinguishes between those that are involved in a polygamous relationship knowingly and willingly. I think you only hurt your argument by descriminating against others looking for their marriage rights aswell.

That was my initial point, and it was a bit provocative in order to put gays now "on the other side of the fence" for the sake of argument.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I don't disagree with rights for people in intimate relationships. I think that "Marriage" regardless of it's actual source is generally concidered a religious institution. I don't think that a religious institution should be a legal one as well. Let all people have civil unions. Let all people get married in churches. Just don't expect your religious cerimonies to have merit in a court of law.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Or just cut the religious aspect out of marriage but I think that has already been thuroughly ingrained.

 

[vanesch]

1. The dinks are continuing to rise in numbers...my wife and I will always be dinks

I think I've been misunderstood. I didn't want to argue from socio-genetic arguments that "marriage between 1 man and 1 woman" is what ought to be, I just said that this tradition is something that got through to us from the deep origins of humankind because it was a socio-genetically advantageous strategy for over thousands of years. This was NOT (as I now think some perceived it) an argument against any 1man-1man couple or whatever. Gay couples don't involve in reproduction and so don't get involved in any strategy, and it hence doesn't make any difference whether they are 2, 3, 24 and whether they are faithful or not ; it doesn't influence their transmission of genetic material to the next generation (which is taken care off by their relatives).
If we grew out of elephants, probably we would have considered marriage between members of a group of females natural, where males are not supposed to take part in any lasting relationship. But the fact that we, as humans, have relatively few offspring (10-15 in a whole lifetime), and have to invest several years into their upbringing, makes that the 1male-1female cell is best suited to the task (each having 50% in the genetic assets of the offspring). At least in ancient times, when life was hard and kids easily died because of lack of care.

Now, society has changed so much that this strategy is probably outdated: whether or not a kid's parents stay together, its survival and reproduction chances are not much altered by that. It is not because daddy left, that your chances of dying prematurely as a kid are much increased. So from that moment on, it becomes more interesting for daddy and mommy to go and "spread their genetic material where they can" :-)
But we still have this tradition of marriage surviving from ancient times.

2. There is no shortage of people in the world. In fact I would say some countries could use a lot more homosexuality. Heck, the whole world could use a lot more homosexuals...

In "the selfish gene" Dawkins makes an interesting observation: if, for instance, Latin America's population keeps growing at the current rate, 500 years from now, the continent will be full, in that, everybody standing upright, they will all touch each other, from Patagonia up to the Gulf, and fill up all the land space.
Clearly, no matter what technological improvements we bring to food production and all that, this will of course not happen in practice, and that's why there are 2 natural mechanisms that will regulate this: famine and war. Technological improvements, and medicine are in fact trying to avoid these regulations, and will make the final bang only worse ; it is like trying to avoid small forest fires until there's so much dead wood that you get a huge brazing fire you cannot control anymore.

The problem is that people are not evolving through any process of natural selection. A mentally retarded person who would not likely generate offspring 10k years ago now has a better chance of producing offspring than a lot of normal, intelligent people do.

Hehe, we are! We are *evolving*, but not necessarily to select out what we 'd consider the "best" (intelligent, just, strong, healthy...). We can only temporarily give ourselves the illusion that we now mastered evolution.

THE ANTS ARE WATCHING US AND WILL TAKE OVER

In fact overpopulation is a good reason to bring down the institution of marriage, if the purpose of marriage is in fact to foster a family.

That's not entirely true, because it would lead us to go and fornicate randomly, with LESS investment in our offspring, compensated by having more of them. In fact, probably the best solution is to legally impose (like do the Chinese) a quorum of offspring (like 1 or 2 kids). If you want to get most out of your kids, then again, it is probably best to stay in a monogamous couple.

 

[vanesch]

I don't disagree with rights for people in intimate relationships. I think that "Marriage" regardless of it's actual source is generally concidered a religious institution.

Eh, I am only married for the law, and most people around me too. In fact, we mainly got married for administrative reasons, especially because I was going to live in another country, procedures are much simpler (and sometimes more advantageous) if you are married. Some marry AGAIN a few years later, in church, mostly just for the fun of it to have a big party.

 

[loseyourname]

I think it's funny that now that people are demanding that homosexuals be allowed to marry, that people are now saying that marriage shouldn't be a function of the state.

As if they had a problem with marriage before homosexuals demanded the right.

It reminds me of those after school programs. The Chess Club, for example. Homosexual students demand the right to be allowed to participate in the Chess Club, and they win the court case, so the school just decides it's going to ban the Chess Club for everybody.

It strikes me as homophobic as any action, and is particularly cowardly.

If you must know, I've had homosexual encounters before. I don't consider myself to be a homosexual, but I'm certainly not homophobic. You might not want to assume so much. As long as marriage is a state function, I think anyone and everyone should be allowed to marry whoever they damn well please. But I still don't think, and never have thought, that marriage should be a state function. Thanks for not addressing a single thing I said in my post, by the way.

 

[Smurf]

If you must know, I've been in a homosexual relationship before. You might not want to assume so much. As long as marriage is a state function, I think anyone and everyone should be allowed to marry whoever they damn well please. But I still don't think, and never have thought, that marriage should be a state function. Thanks for not addressing a single thing I said in my post, by the way.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=741025#post741025

 

[vanesch]

If you must know, I've had homosexual encounters before.

Yeah, me too. Each time I go to the garage, and see the bill, I feel screwed

 

[arildno]

Good post, LYN, I'll address it since no one else seems to have done so.
I'll get back to the issue of socio-biology in a later post.

The original article posted has some blatantly misleading opinions. Arnold is not doing this to pander to the "far-right." He is doing this to pander to the majority of California voters, who already passed a referendum precluding the recognition of homosexual marriages. Arnold is and has always been a populist governor, using the initiative and referendum system more than any other governor in memory. Part of the reason he does this is that he was elected through the initiative system to begin with. The other is that the legislature in California has been notoriously ineffective over the last decade or so, failing to deliver budgets on time, constantly deadlocking and refusing to actually pass any legislation that didn't pander to what might be called the "far-left." Gerrymandering has been so bad in the state that it is impossible to get elected in a majority of districts without appealing to a very liberal sector of the populace that does not represent the actual majority. As a consequence, whereas most voting citizens of the state do not want the recognition of homosexual marriages, most legislators do. Represenation in the state assembly and senate is not doled out evenly.

I am sure you know more about the inticacies of Californian politics than me; I tried to tie Arnold's somewhat surprising veto (surprising on basis of his previous "gay-friendly" measures) to a feature pretty much universal in any political party:
You won't get re-elected as a candidate by your party buddies unless you espouse (if not personally agree with) views compatible with their own.
Pandering to the general public of voters will often be a secondary concern; it is more important to secure re-election as candidate, since if you are not a candidate at the time of the public election, your chances of getting elected into office is zero.

With that out of the way, my personal position on this is the same as Townsend's. The idea that the government can grant someone the right to form a lifelong union with someone that they love is completely absurd to me. The historical evolution of marriage as a western institution can get a little muddled, as it comes largely from two sources. The ancient Greeks married purely as a means of producing legitimate, state-sanctioned heirs, who could inherit the husband's property. There was no love involved whatsoever; in fact, the idea of a Greek man loving anything other than another Greek man (and usually a Greek boy) was absurd to them.

Incorrect, or at least, very inaccurate.
Read for example Aeschines poisonous speech before the popular assembly for why a certain person (can't remember his name right now) should not be eligible for office:
1. The fact that this person had willingly submitted in his early youth to the advances of other males was an excusable weakness due to youth, his continuance of the same practice into adulthood made him patently ineligible, a person of INEXCUSABLY loose morals.
2. One of those males to which the person submitted himself in adult years,is characterized by the odd personality , according to Aeschines, of sole attraction to other men, and Aeschines notes that it is typical of these males to retain youthful looks long past what "normal" men (like Aeschines himself) do. (I.e, the folk belief that gay men often look a lot younger than their straight counterpart is not something new; it was circulating in ancient Greece as well)
3. That is, for the Greeks in general, the man/ "boy"-love thing (the "boy" was typically 16-17, the man should ideally not be past 30, the age when he typically came into his inheritance and ought to find a suitable wife) was always a rather problematic thing, but something that could be tolerated.
Men who persisted into old age with fascination for youths could meet quite a lot of ridicule (see for example, Aristofanes' portrayal of Socrates and his ilk in "The Clouds"), and the men called "kinaidoi", who wanted a "passive" role sexually when they were adult were scorned and regarded as unfit citizens.

Aristofanes and Aeschines presented their works towards the GENERAL public, and hence, the attitudes towards sexuality contained in their works should be regarded as more representative of the common view than what Socrates, Plato etc. spoke with their philosophical f*ck-buddies.

It should be clear why the conception legally had to be between one man and one woman. Only a male/female pairing can produce a child, and if multiple partners were allowed, there would be doubt as to which children were the legitimate heirs of which fathers. There is no reason for this conception of the pairing beyond that.

Caveat: Within a PATRIARCHATE, this is true enough, not so with a matriarchate. Our closest relatives, the bonobos, have a matriarchal societal structure, with markedly different unions of coupling.
This seems also to have been the case with human matriarchates.

In fact, from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) the Christian conception did not scripturally forbid the love between man and man. It only admonished their lying together as if with a woman. While the idea of love without sex seems strange to us, the biblical conception of love doesn't seem to have much to do with physical lust. In fact, the two seem to be intentionally separated.

Correct.
Since no one cares a damn about gods whilst enjoying sex and the pleasant aftermath, it is necessary to restrict peoples' access to sex, and pollute peoples' minds about sex by dubbing them as "sinful pleasures" if you are to gain the sought-after level of control over individuals.


Perhaps I'll address a few of your other points later on.

 

[vanesch]

Since no one cares a damn about gods whilst enjoying sex and the pleasant aftermath,

And what about: "oh my god, this feels goood ? "

 

[arildno]

And what about: "oh my god, this feels goood ? "

Well, then it is the real person you're with who fulfills the role of god for you, more than any scriptural god ever can.

 

[vanesch]

Our closest relatives, the bonobos, have a matriarchal societal structure, with markedly different unions of coupling.

Bonobo life is great:
http://www.primates.com/bonobos/bonobosexsoc.html

From the text:

During reconciliations, bonobos use the same sexual repertoire as they do during feeding time. Based on an analysis of many such incidents, my study yielded the first solid evidence for sexual behavior as a mechanism to overcome aggression. Not that this function is absent in other animals--or in humans, for that matter--but the art of sexual reconciliation may well have reached its evolutionary peak in the bonobo. For these animals, sexual behavior is indistinguishable from social behavior. Given its peacemaking and appeasement functions, it is not surprising that sex among bonobos occurs in so many different partner combinations, including between juveniles and adults. The need for peaceful coexistence is obviously not restricted to adult heterosexual pairs.

 

[Art]

Yeah, me too. Each time I go to the garage, and see the bill, I feel screwed

Stop complaining... just bend over and take it like a man.

 

[arildno]

Human behaviour is not of course completely explained by purely genetic considerations, they only give you AVERAGE tendencies over time scales long enough to have an evolutionary influence. The turn-over rate you talk about are the statistical fluctuations around those long-term averages. So everything that happens only on a time scale of a few hundred years or less will not play a significant role, and it plays less and less a role because our society becomes so terribly complex that it is difficult to say what pattern of behaviour will result in better gene transfer.
So all you can deduce from sociobiology for our species are traditions that must have been the same since we were hunters-gatherers and early civilisations. One of these traditions is the 1-man 1-woman (with some adultery :-) relation, raising their kids (at least for a few years).

You'd better check up on matriarchal traditions. These do not, it seems, follow the 1-1 pattern.

Secondly, and more importantly, to assume a dominating reproductive "drive" behind human actions has very little evidence.

A more rational, and better evidenced theory than assuming that human behaviour are to be seen as primarily reproductive strategies, are to say that human behavior is first and foremost characterized by the motivational factors seeking pleasure and avoiding pain (SPAP-strategies).
Now, this is not arbitrarily chosen, but closely related to the evolution of the neural systems and furtheron, consciousness.

It is important not to conflate the issues here:
It is evidently true that reproductive sex, for example, is pleasurable.
But this is a "fact of consciousness", rather than a motivational drive towards reproduction.
Obviously, an organism devising SPAP-strategies whose way of reproduction is painful will be selected against relative to an organism whose way of reproduction is deemed as pleasurable.
But in no way does it follow that an organism whose sole pleasure in life is the act of reproduction will be reproductively more successful than an organism whose pleasures are many and varied.
That is, by regarding pleasure-seeking and pain-eschewal as the main causes of human behaviour we are not fitting the emperor in "new clothes" i.e, that the set of actions predictably to follow from them is equal to the set of actions which would follow if the reproductive drive was dominant; rather, we are espousing a new principle for explaining behaviour.

There are many human behaviours that are more easily explained as SPAP-strategies; suicide of a youngster, for example, may be seen as a pain-avoidance strategy, it doesn't make much sense as a reproductive strategy.

Monkish celibacy is another case:
By firmly believing that unending bliss will be theirs if they sacrifice a few "minor" pleasures, they are basically involved in a pleasure-seeking strategy.
Again, their behaviour makes little sense from a reproductive view.


Essentially, then, my view is that by the markedly increased neural activity and evolved intelligence, human behaviour has become extremely adaptable to the actual circumstances they live in, or, in other words, their actions are better to be understood as SPAP-responses to experiences, rather than as reproductive strategies.

 

[vanesch]

A more rational, and better evidenced theory than assuming that human behaviour are to be seen as primarily reproductive strategies, are to say that human behavior is first and foremost characterized by the motivational factors seeking pleasure and avoiding pain (SPAP-strategies).

Sure, I don't deny that, on the contrary! As I say somewhere else, I strongly believe in hedonism (which is SPAP, nothing else).

Now, this is not arbitrarily chosen, but closely related to the evolution of the neural systems and furtheron, consciousness.
It is important not to conflate the issues here:
It is evidently true that reproductive sex, for example, is pleasurable.
But this is a "fact of consciousness", rather than a motivational drive towards reproduction.
Obviously, an organism devising SPAP-strategies whose way of reproduction is painful will be selected against relative to an organism whose way of reproduction is deemed as pleasurable.

Exactly. As you point out, SPAP and evolutionary success are not contradictory. In fact, evolutionary strategies always win in the end, so probably SPAP is just ONE of the different possible strategies. And, as you pointed out, NOW our societies are so complex and quickly changing that there is probably no strategy of reproductive success that will be selected for. I mean, the time it takes (several generations) for a particular strategy to be selected for, society has already changed and the strategy isn't optimal anymore in any respect. So probably behavioural influences are not steered anymore now by genetic mechanisms. But we have still the inheritance of the past, when behaviour WAS strongly determining when our ancestors were reproductively successful or not, so the rules of "getting more genes to the next generation" DID count back then.
Now what is special about the human species (apart from its brain) is the VERY LONG PERIOD needed to bring up kids to self-support. It is several years, which is very rare in the animal kingdom. So the 50-50 rule is optimal in that respect.

But in no way does it follow that an organism whose sole pleasure in life is the act of reproduction will be reproductively more successful than an organism whose pleasures are many and varied.
That is, by regarding pleasure-seeking and pain-eschewal as the main causes of human behaviour we are not fitting the emperor in "new clothes" i.e, that the set of actions predictably to follow from them is equal to the set of actions which would follow if the reproductive drive was dominant; rather, we are espousing a new principle for explaining behaviour.

I agree partly with this. The new behavioural rule is correct as long as it doesn't go *radically* against the good old Darwinian behavioural rules. After all, the aim of the game is to win over several generations, so if SPAP behaviour gives an overall gain over several generations, and has, locally, sometimes consequences that seem to be going against Darwinian behavioural rules, then that's still a good strategy.

There are many human behaviours that are more easily explained as SPAP-strategies; suicide of a youngster, for example, may be seen as a pain-avoidance strategy, it doesn't make much sense as a reproductive strategy.

Look what I said above: *locally* these consequences might seem to go against Darwinian imposed rules, but as long as suicide remains a minor phenomenon, and SPAP gives OVERALL advantages to most of its members, it will be selected for.

Monkish celibacy is another case:
By firmly believing that unending bliss will be theirs if they sacrifice a few "minor" pleasures, they are basically involved in a pleasure-seeking strategy.
Again, their behaviour makes little sense from a reproductive view.

I have my own theory that we've been selected for religious behaviour because it gave OVERALL advantages to the group (like working like crazy and obeying to the god-king, hence building a stronger nation and beating up the neighbours), and this monk-behaviour is some of the excess of that - as long as the majority of the group doesn't turn into monks, it is an acceptable price for an overall positive effect on the survival of genetic material.

Essentially, then, my view is that by the markedly increased neural activity and evolved intelligence, human behaviour has become extremely adaptable to the actual circumstances they live in, or, in other words, their actions are better to be understood as SPAP-responses to experiences, rather than as reproductive strategies.

Especially now, I agree. But it shouldn't be in TOO STRONG a conflict with Darwinian selection, because after all, after a few generations it would simply be dying out. So this Darwinian selection STILL plays. And something like the strong social pressure to lead a monogamous relationship is difficult to explain OTHERWISE. There's not much SPAP to it, is there ? The Bonobos have more fun.

 

[DM]

Eh, I am only married for the law, and most people around me too. In fact, we mainly got married for administrative reasons, especially because I was going to live in another country, procedures are much simpler (and sometimes more advantageous) if you are married. Some marry AGAIN a few years later, in church, mostly just for the fun of it to have a big party.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact of the law being under the influence of religious principles. Furthermore, if you or anyone chooses to marry in a church, you will be subject and forced to accept its policies, irrespective of being for fun or not.

 

[arildno]

Especially now, I agree. But it shouldn't be in TOO STRONG a conflict with Darwinian selection, because after all, after a few generations it would simply be dying out. So this Darwinian selection STILL plays. And something like the strong social pressure to lead a monogamous relationship is difficult to explain OTHERWISE. There's not much SPAP to it, is there ? The Bonobos have more fun.

Again, you ignore the dynamics of matriarchal societies:
Let's look how this can be favorable in a Darwinian sense:
Since it is trivial for a dominant female to know who her own daughters (and sons) are, she doesn't have the slightest inclination to impose a control on the extraneous sexual behaviour of males. As long as she is able to seduce males to bring her and her kids food, say, it would be better for her that the males are so besotted with the thought of getting a vagina award that she can choose whomever she likes.
In this respect, she is in no serious way a rival to her co-sisters; they can distribute the silly males between themselves in an amicable manner.

Furthermore, let's look at it from the male perspective:
Vagina is good. Really, really good. If I spread my seed as much as possible among as many females as possible, then I've got a really good chance that several of the babies born will be mine; just in case, I'll be nice to the female and all her kids (otherwise, she might join her sisters on a vagina-strike against me, reducing my chances of getting more babies).

This is a perfectly well-functioning system; that is to say:
From a Darwinian perspective it is UNDETERMINED whether patriarchal or matriarchal societies will represent the best reproductive strategy overall; the clinching issue will be provided by those SPAP-strategies seen as most feasible to the individual.

 

[vanesch]

Again, you ignore the dynamics of matriarchal societies:
Let's look how this can be favorable in a Darwinian sense:
Since it is trivial for a dominant female to know who her own daughters (and sons) are, she doesn't have the slightest inclination to impose a control on the extraneous sexual behaviour of males. As long as she is able to seduce males to bring her and her kids food, say, it would be better for her that the males are so besotted with the thought of getting a vagina award that she can choose whomever she likes.
In this respect, she is in no serious way a rival to her co-sisters; they can distribute the silly males between themselves in an amicable manner.

Furthermore, let's look at it from the male perspective:
Vagina is good. Really, really good. If I spread my seed as much as possible among as many females as possible, then I've got a really good chance that several of the babies born will be mine; just in case, I'll be nice to the female and all her kids (otherwise, she might join her sisters on a vagina-strike against me, reducing my chances of getting more babies).

This is a perfectly well-functioning system; that is to say:
From a Darwinian perspective it is UNDETERMINED whether patriarchal or matriarchal societies will represent the best reproductive strategy overall; the clinching issue will be provided by those SPAP-strategies seen as most feasible to the individual.

I agree entirely that there are different good strategies. I'd say as long as there are no important possessions in a tribal society, as a male, you just fornicate as much as you can, and as a female you "prostitute" in a way to get things done by males (that's about what you describe). There's something to say for that, and as long as raising a few more or less kids doesn't change much, there is no problem. In fact, some of our behaviour goes in that direction :-)

But I think the caveat comes when there's only a finite amount of stuff you can distribute amongst your kids: this goes from who is going to inherit your stuff to the time you can invest in them, their food etc... The system you describe works very well in a "luxury" environment. When you just have a lot of kids and you estimate that some are yours, as long as you don't have to make huge efforts to have them survive, there's no problem. However, if conditions are harsher this doesn't work. From the moment that investing more in one, means, investing less in another one, you'd prefer, as a male, that you only invest in YOUR OWN kids. For instance, if you are a farmer, which kids are going to take over the farm ? Just dividing your land in as much kids as there are is probably not your best strategy. Having land, for a farmer, means more chances of survival. You want to give your land only to those few who are really your kids. This is different from just jumping from tree to tree and pick a few bananas, which you distribute amongst the kids, to get a great time with their mommy.

 

[arildno]

But I think the caveat comes when there's only a finite amount of stuff you can distribute amongst your kids: this goes from who is going to inherit your stuff to the time you can invest in them, their food etc... The system you describe works very well in a "luxury" environment. When you just have a lot of kids and you estimate that some are yours, as long as you don't have to make huge efforts to have them survive, there's no problem. However, if conditions are harsher this doesn't work. From the moment that investing more in one, means, investing less in another one, you'd prefer, as a male, that you only invest in YOUR OWN kids. For instance, if you are a farmer, which kids are going to take over the farm ? Just dividing your land in as much kids as there are is probably not your best strategy. Having land, for a farmer, means more chances of survival. You want to give your land only to those few who are really your kids. This is different from just jumping from tree to tree and pick a few bananas, which you distribute amongst the kids, to get a great time with their mommy.

1. To develop a healthy bisexuality in the population at large will mean that from a SPAP-perspective you get lots of new pleasures to choose from, and by thereby (presumably) limiting the frequency on strictly heterosexual relationships you will limit the number of kids being born, so that adverse effects of over-population relative to available resources are reduced (which is not in contradiction with natural selection)
2. From a FEMALE perspective, the matriarchate structure should always be preferable; whether or not this structure is overthrown by males is a historical contingency.

 

[vanesch]

1. To develop a healthy bisexuality in the population at large will mean that from a SPAP-perspective you get lots of new pleasures to choose from, and by thereby (presumably) limiting the frequency on strictly heterosexual relationships you will limit the number of kids being born, so that adverse effects of over-population relative to available resources are reduced (which is not in contradiction with natural selection)
2. From a FEMALE perspective, the matriarchate structure should always be preferable; whether or not this structure is overthrown by males is a historical contingency.

I agree with 2.
Overpopulation, though, is only a very recent problem ! And since it is a problem, there are birth control methods which are more effective on the short term than waiting until this bisexuality is eventually selected for. In fact, it doesn't even work, because the society that limits its own growing population will be crushed by the neighbours who grow uncontrolled.

 

[arildno]

I agree with 2.
Overpopulation, though, is only a very recent problem !

I said over-population relative to available resources; you said "scarcity of resources". Same thing. Very old.

And since it is a problem, there are birth control methods which are more effective on the short term than waiting until this bisexuality is eventually selected for.

It already is, which is amply attested by history.
Western societal influences TODAY tend to maximize the manifest heterosexuality (manifest meaning explicit desires, thoughts and actions), while minimizing manifest homosexuality.
Societies in which this societal influence is dissimilar show widely varying degrees of manifest sexuality; the simplest explanation of this is that the majority of individuals have a bisexual potential (latency, that is), whose manifestation is dependent on societal influences.

In other words, the majority of those calling themselves today "straight" are deluding themselves, the psychologically implanted mechanism being that of a carefully constructed bulwark of emotional disgust at the thought of homosexual encounters.
This bulwark mechanism works at its poorest on those individuals who happen to be on the homosexual extreme of the spectrum, since for those, the major sources of pleasures will be homosexual.
It is at its most effective on the other end, where the only slight homosexual tendencies might be dispensed with, since the dominant source of pleasure will be heterosexual encounters, anyway.

The INTENSITY of disgust will roughly be proportional to the strength of latent homosexual desires, in order to have a sufficiently strong bulwark.
This is why intense homophobia is typically found in male police officers, career army folk and athletes who desire and choose a career where they are in close physical contact with other males, and form passionate buddy relationships. They NEED the physical&mental intimacy with other men (more than with their girl-friends who they tend to beat, anyway), but they are sh*t-scared of being labelled as gays.

At some point, though, the exclusivity of homosexual desire becomes so strong that the societal control mechanism of disgust is ineffective in keeping them at the latent level, i.e, the societal control of desires experiences a collapse.

 

[Lisa!]

I want to know whether the majority of gays prefer the marriage to open relationship or they're just defending their basic rights as a human.
Does anyone have any information about the gay marriage in countries that it's legal?

 

[arildno]

I want to know whether the majority of gays prefer the marriage to open relationship or they're just defending their basic rights as a human.
Does anyone have any information about the gay marriage in countries that it's legal?

In Norway, we've got what is called "partnerships".
Typically, those who enter a partnership have been together for quite a few years before they choose to take the step of formalizing their relationship in this manner.
Many don't bother with it at all.
Some (a minority) actually disagree to it in principle in that it is a form of aping the "breeders", and that the government haven't got a damn right to legislate on such personal matters.

As you can see it is quite varied attitudes..

 

[vanesch]

I said over-population relative to available resources; you said "scarcity of resources". Same thing. Very old.

Ah, but when there is scarcity of ressources, the winning policy is not to limit one's offspring !
Imagine 2 groups of individuals living in a confined space with limited ressources. One group A limits its offspring while the other one (B) breeds on. The breeding group will soon lack ressources and they'll compete for the same ressources. As there are more of B as of A, and as we take it that due to competition, both are equally reduced in numbers (say, 50% of each survive), at each generation, there's relatively more of B than of A that will survive: A is competed out. Now, if A and B would have IDENTICAL offspring limitations, that would be of course beneficial to both. But it is unstable: once one generates slightly more offspring, it pushes as well A as B in ressource scarcity, and then the B will statistically start to outnumber the A.

It already is, which is amply attested by history.
Western societal influences TODAY tend to maximize the manifest heterosexuality (manifest meaning explicit desires, thoughts and actions), while minimizing manifest homosexuality.

I'm not arguing against any selectivity of homo or bisexuality. One thing is clear: homosexuality can not be dominantly selected for, because then the species stops breeding :-) But as long as it is a relatively small fraction that is purely homosexual, there's no problem ; bisexuality can be neutral or even slightly positive as you point out.

The thing I wanted to underline is only that the "monogamous 1 man 1 woman" cell - as breeding is concerned - can be understood to be socially endorsed because it maximizes the transfer of the genetic material to the next generation within that cell and hence will motivate mostly the partners to invest in their offspring. As human offspring is small in number and requires high investments, this motivation is important.
This doesn't say anything about the homosexual behaviour because it is neutral concerning offspring.

 

[Lisa!]

1. To develop a healthy bisexuality in the population at large will mean that from a SPAP-perspective you get lots of new pleasures to choose from, and by thereby (presumably) limiting the frequency on strictly heterosexual relationships you will limit the number of kids being born, so that adverse effects of over-population relative to available resources are reduced (which is not in contradiction with natural selection)

I don't know if I've understood you well. You mean bisexuality could be very useful and it should be encouraged in order to tackle the overpopulation problem?

 

[arildno]

Ah, but when there is scarcity of ressources, the winning policy is not to limit one's offspring !
Imagine 2 groups of individuals living in a confined space with limited ressources. One group A limits its offspring while the other one (B) breeds on. The breeding group will soon lack ressources and they'll compete for the same ressources. As there are more of B as of A, and as we take it that due to competition, both are equally reduced in numbers (say, 50% of each survive), at each generation, there's relatively more of B than of A that will survive: A is competed out. Now, if A and B would have IDENTICAL offspring limitations, that would be of course beneficial to both. But it is unstable: once one generates slightly more offspring, it pushes as well A as B in ressource scarcity, and then the B will statistically start to outnumber the A.

Incorrect; you are confusing historical contingencies with dynamical, adaptive mechanisms.
It is a historical contingency if there happens to be two population groups adjacent to each other in a time of starvation/resource scarcity.
There could equally well be historical situations in which population limitation is the optimal choice.

Furthermore, you ignore the dynamical utilization of a bisexual population (which is what you find among other primates):
The main function of sexuality from a Darwinian point of view is for primates to keep the level of social tension within the group on an acceptably low level (this is important in order to have safe enough environment for the growing young)
However, the willingness to switch between reproductive modes and non-reproductive modes has a nice regulatory effect as well:
In times where there is great need to get new individuals (for example, after a devastating plague), more reproductive sex is engaged in, whereas at times where the population level needs to be stabilized, more non-reproductive sex is engaged in.
The tension level within the group can by this means be kept roughly constant, whereas a swift adaptation in terms of numbers of members to the current situation is made possible.

I'm not arguing against any selectivity of homo or bisexuality. One thing is clear: homosexuality can not be dominantly selected for, because then the species stops breeding :-)

Ah, the old myth!
You think gays "can't get it up" in the presence of women?
That's wrong.
Nor is it true that a gay man will find it painful or unpleasurable to have intercourse with a woman; but why do you think so many humans once they are in a relationship don't bother any longer with masturbation?
It is because that pleasure is found inferior to the ones one rather would have, i.e, it is pleasures one readily might dispense with, nor can one develop the rich and varied emotions you may find in a relationship.

In fact, a far more rational planning of child-raising would be possible if the human population today had been predominantly homosexual.
Dominant genetic flaws like Huntingdon's could readily be removed from the gene pool, by simply banning such individuals from engaging in reproductive sex; to which they wouldn't have too much inclination towards anyway, and
thus, such a ban would not be an inappropriately harsh regulation of individuals' lives (as such a ban would be today).

The thing I wanted to underline is only that the "monogamous 1 man 1 woman" cell - as breeding is concerned - can be understood to be socially endorsed because it maximizes the transfer of the genetic material to the next generation within that cell and hence will motivate mostly the partners to invest in their offspring. As human offspring is small in number and requires high investments, this motivation is important.
This doesn't say anything about the homosexual behaviour because it is neutral concerning offspring.

Now, as for the motivation thing:
Intention is not experience, seeking something desirable is not the same as having the desire fulfilled.

The fact that reproductive sex is pleasurable is, of course, predetermined by genetics, the fact that people seek it, is a SPAP-strategy, not, in general, a desire to procreate (only homosexuals are interested in engaging in reproductive sex mainly for the sake of procreation (with a mild pleasure besides), heterosexuals engage in it for quite different reasons).

That is to say, there are several pleasures and pains present in humans laid down by natural selection; it does not follow that you can construct individual psychologies on basis of a spurious (and, IMO, basically non-existent) motivation for procreation.
Rather, their presence means that, on average, a sufficient number of SPAP-strategies will be developed that involve procreative acts.

However, what is painful and what is pleasurable is by now means a strictly INHERITED phenomenon; far more important is the influence of individual experience (and the corresponding unique development of the neural system, i.e, learning).
But, therefore, since it is not inherited, simplistic models of natural selection fails on the individual level, but is trivially true in a statistical sense.

For example, take again the case of suicides.
In as much as the enironment is relatively stable in providing triggers for the development of suicidal tendencies in some members of a population, then the recurrence of suicides over time is not something selected for genetically.

There is no need to implant desires towards natural selection in individual members; natural selection works fine without it, and aside from regarding a limited set of pleasures&pains universal among humans as genetically predetermined, most of our pleasures&pains may be regarded as experentially determined, and that in all cases, on the individual level, it is SPAP-strategies that constitute our psychologies and may explain behaviours.

 

[DM]

However, the willingness to switch between reproductive modes and non-reproductive modes has a nice regulatory effect as well:
In times where there is great need to get new individuals (for example, after a devastating plague), more reproductive sex is engaged in, whereas at times where the population level needs to be stabilized, more non-reproductive sex is engaged in.

Even though there could be more homosexuals than heterosexuals? I disagree.

If the world fully accepts homosexuality, the danger zone of not reproducing due to a "devastating plague" kicks in.

The fact that reproductive sex is pleasurable is, of course, predetermined by genetics, the fact that people seek it, is a SPAP-strategy, not, in general, a desire to procreate (only homosexuals are interested in engaging in reproductive sex mainly for the sake of procreation (with a mild pleasure besides), heterosexuals engage in it for quite different reasons).

Is it me or you got it wrong? Isn't this the other way around?

 

[arildno]

No, heterosexuals mainly engage in reproductive sex for the pleasure it brings them, not because they "intend" by every such act to produce a baby.
Any other viewpoint is simply wrong.

 

[DM]

No, heterosexuals mainly engage in reproductive sex for the pleasure it brings them, not because they "intend" by every such act to produce a baby.

That's a bold statement. Prove it.

Any other viewpoint is simply wrong.

 

[cronxeh]

What we know for a fact is that there is a gene that is responsible for homosexuality. I've read a study on this done on the fruitflies I believe where they've altered a gene and the affected male fruit fly was trying to hump other males thinking they were the mate.

How this works in humans I have not a clue, but perhaps at the basic level we really are that primitive and a slight alteration in genetics will result in homosexuality or bisexuality. If this is the case, and I don't think you are "gay by choice" - that is a completely ignorant statement, then homosexuality is a serious problem to humankind at large, and should not be promoted further than that.