Does Gravity Invalidate the Second Law of Thermodynamics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between gravity and the Second Law of Thermodynamics, particularly whether gravitational forces can lead to a decrease in disorder in a closed system, thereby challenging the law's validity. The scope includes theoretical implications and conceptual clarifications regarding thermodynamics and gravitational effects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant claims that gravitational forces create order by causing matter to stick together, suggesting this invalidates the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
  • Another participant challenges this view by proposing the example of a collapsing hydrogen cloud, implying that it could lead to the release of free energy, which may contradict the original claim.
  • A different participant questions the validity of the initial claim, arguing that the transformation of potential energy into kinetic energy actually increases disorder.
  • Another response emphasizes that the presence of gravitational potential energy indicates the system is not closed, thus the original argument is flawed.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the initial claim and the request for a Nobel Prize, suggesting that the argument lacks merit.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of gravity on the Second Law of Thermodynamics, with multiple competing views presented. No consensus is reached on the validity of the law in the context of gravitational forces.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of defining a closed system and the role of external energy sources, indicating that assumptions about the system's boundaries may affect the discussion.

SELFMADE
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Says, in a closed system disorder is always increasing, more or less.

But with gravitational forces, matters are sticking together--creating order.

Thus the law=invalid

Can I get my Noble?
 
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Why do you not apply your theory to say, a collapsing cloud of hydrogen ? Maybe you will find free energy coming out !
 
Since you only asked one question, maybe.

I'm not sure what a Noble is so you may get one, but you certainly won't receive a Nobel of any sort for the statements you made.
 
SELFMADE said:
Thus the law=invalid
You should be careful about claiming a law is invalid when you haven't understood the law yet.
The effect that you mention transforms potential energy into very disorder kinetic energy.
 
SELFMADE said:
Says, in a closed system disorder is always increasing, more or less.

But with gravitational forces, matters are sticking together--creating order.

Thus the law=invalid

Can I get my Noble?

This is rather silly.

The fact that you have an external source of energy via the gravitational potential implies automatically that this is NOT a closed system. If you write the partition function without including such possible energy state, then your function is an incomplete description of the system.

Zz.
 
SELFMADE said:
Says, in a closed system disorder is always increasing, more or less.

But with gravitational forces, matters are sticking together--creating order.

Thus the law=invalid

Can I get my Noble?
Someone already locked this, but I had to bring it to everyone's attention: Nothing more classic than a crackpot asking for a "Noble" prize!
 

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