Seeking derivation of real scalar field Lagrangian

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and understanding of the Lagrangian density for a real scalar field, specifically the formula \(\mathcal{L} = \frac {1}{2} [ \dot \phi ^2 - ( \nabla \phi ) ^2 - (m \phi )^2 ]\). Participants explore its components, context in quantum field theory, and analogies to classical mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the first two terms in the Lagrangian resemble kinetic and potential energy, while the third term relates to mass-energy concepts, but its origin remains unclear.
  • One participant suggests that the Lagrangian is a definition that describes a field's dynamics, emphasizing the importance of Lorentz invariance in determining its form.
  • Another participant draws a parallel between the scalar field Lagrangian and classical mechanics, specifically comparing it to the Lagrangian of a mass on a spring.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between the Lagrangian of the scalar field and the Klein-Gordon Lagrangian, with one participant initially asserting they are similar but later retracting that statement.
  • One participant expresses confusion over the differences between the forms of the Lagrangian and acknowledges a misunderstanding regarding their equivalence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the structure of the Lagrangian and its components but express differing views on its derivation and the implications of its terms. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific physical context and derivation of the mass term.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention constraints like Lorentz invariance that influence the form of the Lagrangian, but there is no consensus on the specific physical situations that lead to its derivation.

snoopies622
Messages
852
Reaction score
29
Here and there I come across the following formula for the Lagrangian density of a real scalar field, but not a deriviation.

<br /> \mathcal{L} = \frac {1}{2} [ \dot \phi ^2 - ( \nabla \phi ) ^2 - (m \phi )^2 ]<br /> <br />

Could someone show me where this comes from? The m squared term in particular is a mystery.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The first two terms look like kinetic and potential energy, but the third one . . all that comes to mind is the mass-energy relationship of special relativity, but I thought this formula was from classical mechanics.
 
In what context are you studying this? Most often this comes up at the beginning of a quantum field theory course.

The Lagrangian is more a definition than anything; when we write down the Lagrangian we are saying, "Let's imagine a field whose dynamics are described by this Lagrangian. How does it behave?" And we can write down any Lagrangian we want.

However, there are some constraints we tend to impose on what Lagrangians we write down and study. One is Lorentz invariance: the Lagrangian should describe a field whose dynamics are consistent with special relativity. This limits what terms can appear in the Lagrangian, but doesn't determine it fully. If we ask for the simplest Lorentz invariant Lagrangian for a scalar field, we get the one you wrote down above. This is why this Lagrangian comes up often.

m is a free parameter. In quantum field theory, a scalar field with this Lagrangian has excitations which turn out to be particles of mass m.
 
Yes, I bumped into it studying quantum field theory. It's supposed to have the same form as the Klein-Gordon Lagrangian, yet come about without any quantum assumptions.

I assumed that there was some physical situation that corresponds to it, as

<br /> <br /> L = \frac {1}{2}m \dot {x}^2 - \frac {1}{2}kx^2<br /> <br />

corresponds to a mass on a spring obeying Hooke's law.
 
why not.
the first two terms form a kinetic energy part
1/2(∂ψ/∂t)2-1/2(∇ψ)2 can be written as 1/2(∂μψ)2 which corresponds to kinetic energy and rest is of course some potential energy of spring type thing 1/2(mψ)2.:biggrin:
 
Oh I see — the first two terms are analogous to the Minkowski displacement vector with magnitude ds^2 = (c dt) ^ 2 - dx ^2 and the third term is the potential.

Yes, that makes some sense. Thanks, Andrien! :)
 
That's funny, I just noticed that it doesn't have the same form as the Klein-Gordon Lagrangian at all. One has second derivatives and the other second powers.

Now I'm wondering where I read that . .

Edit: Oops, one's a Lagrangian and one isn't. Moderators, feel free to delete this entry #7.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K