News Serving Your Country: The Emotional Toll of Military Service

[Daminc]

I was not commenting on the idea that you do not do a threat analysis the ROE, but rather that you do not question why you are in the battle when you are there - you merely accept that you are and act accordingly.

Ah, ok. It's just that most civilians that I've come across wouldn't differentiate between situation acceptance and the lack of thought during combat.

Also, the difference between the "no thought" (due to intense training) and "no thought" due to sheep mentality should be noted.

 

[NewScientist]

Yes, I remember early biology where I was taught about reflex arcs that exist in your spine so the thought process does not have to go to the brain to be responded to. In battle I like to think that a sort of reflex arc exists so that instinctively I do the right thing rather than conciously thinking, cover, fire, move, check rooftops etc - and the stripping of a rifle etc become natural reactions.

Thats what i meant!

-NewScientist

 

[1123581321]

i know a guy who was in 'nam, a SOG or recon or something like that. he was captured, and put in a camp with i don't know how many other guys. they were in bamboo cages, and were able to communicate somehow without letting the NVA know about it. one night, they excaped, killng men with their hands at first, then knives. they never used guns, they wanted to be stealthy. they found friendly forces 3 days later.
he never talks about they war unless he is drunk.
he is very proud of what he did, doesn't regret it, and signed up for a second tour of duty 3 months after being in the prison.


fibonacci

 

[Pengwuino]

Thats one thing I've actually noticed about WW2 vs. Vietnam vets. Vietnam vents just don't want to talk about what happened (like my uncle) there but WW2 vets will tell you stories for hours on end (my grandfather's friends... my grandfather never saw any action)!

 

[Art]

i know a guy who was in 'nam, a SOG or recon or something like that. he was captured, and put in a camp with i don't know how many other guys. they were in bamboo cages, and were able to communicate somehow without letting the NVA know about it. one night, they excaped, killng men with their hands at first, then knives. they never used guns, they wanted to be stealthy. they found friendly forces 3 days later.
he never talks about they war unless he is drunk.
he is very proud of what he did, doesn't regret it, and signed up for a second tour of duty 3 months after being in the prison.


fibonacci

Your friend is one of an elite few as only 36 POWs escaped during the Vietnam war. Here's the official US gov't list including their names. Which one is your buddy?.
US Prisoners of War who escaped captivity during the Vietnam War
Sorted by Name

USA S. Vietnam AIKEN, LARRY DELARNARD E4 1969/05/13 1969/07/10
USA S. Vietnam ANDERSON, ROGER DALE E2 1968/01/03 1968/01/12
USA S. Vietnam BRASWELL, DONALD ROBERT E4 1967/08/23 1967/08/24
USA S. Vietnam BREWER, LEE E5 1968/01/07 1968/01/08
USA S. Vietnam CAMACHO, ISSAC E7 1963/11/24 1965/07/13
USN Laos DENGLER, DIETER O2 1966/02/01 1966/07/20
USA S. Vietnam DIERLING, EDWARD A E5 1968/02/01 1968/02/23
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam DODD, JOE LEE 1965/10/10 1965/10/25
USMC S. Vietnam DODSON, JAMES E5 1966/05/06 1966/06/05
USMC S. Vietnam ECKES, WALTER W E3 1966/05/10 1966/06/05
USA S. Vietnam FANN, JERRY L E3 1967/03/21 1967/03/21
USA S. Vietnam GRAENING, BRUCE A E3 1967/03/09 1967/03/18
USA S. Vietnam GUFFEY, JERRY E4 1969/03/04 1969/03/04
USMC S. Vietnam HAMILTON, WALTER D E2 1965/10/18 1965/10/29
USA S. Vietnam HATCH, PAUL G E3 1969/08/24 1969/08/25
USA S. Vietnam HAYHURST, ROBERT A E5 1968/02/01 1968/02/23
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam HOLT, DEWEY THOMAS 1967/08/23 1967/08/24
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam HUDSON, HENRY M 1965/12/20 1965/12/21
USMC S. Vietnam IODICE, FRANK C. E4 1968/05/30 1968/06/01
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam JONES, EDWIN D 1965/12/20 1965/12/21
USA S. Vietnam KING, EVERTT MELBOURNE JR E4 1968/02/01 1968/02/08
USN Laos KLUSMANN, CHARLES F O3 1964/06/06 1964/08/31
USA S. Vietnam MARTIN, DONALD EUGENE E5 1968/03/02 1968/04/14
USMC S. Vietnam NELSON, STEVEN N E3 1968/01/07 1968/01/21
USMC S. Vietnam NORTH, JOSEPH JR E2 1965/10/18 1965/10/29
USAF S. Vietnam PAGE, JASPER N E6 1965/10/30 1965/11/04
USMC S. Vietnam POTTER, ALBERT J E5 1968/05/30 1968/06/01
USMC S. Vietnam RISNER, RICHARD F O4 1968/08/20 1968/08/22
USMC S. Vietnam ROHA, MICHAEL R E1 1968/01/07 1968/01/21
USA S. Vietnam ROWE, JAMES NICHOLAS O2 1963/10/29 1968/12/31
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam SMITH, LINDA 1975/03/10 1975/03/27
CIVILIAN S. Vietnam SMITH, MICHELLE L 1975/03/10 1975/03/27
USMC S. Vietnam TALLAFERRO, WILLIAM P E4 1968/02/06 1968/02/13
USA S. Vietnam TAYLOR, WILLIAM B E5 1968/03/20 1968/05/06
USA S. Vietnam VANPUTTEN, THOMAS E4 1968/02/11 1969/04/17
USA S. Vietnam WRIGHT, BUDDY E5 1968/09/22 1968/10/06
Number of Records: 36 End of Report

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/pmsea/pmsea_escapee.pdf

 

[NewScientist]

Art - there are more, just not officially recognised due to the areas in which the troops operated or the way in which the troops were liberated etc.

 

[Art]

Art - there are more, just not officially recognised due to the areas in which the troops operated or the way in which the troops were liberated etc.

To keep this discussion factual do you have a reference to prove this statement?

 

[NewScientist]

Nope - I thought common sense would prevail.

 

[1123581321]

most of that SOG stuff no one knows about, its called classified. i know that more people excaped than that duering the course of the war. perhaps you are thinking only of airmen who excaped from places like the hanoi hilton.

fibonacci

 

[Art]

most of that SOG stuff no one knows about, its called classified. i know that more people excaped than that duering the course of the war. perhaps you are thinking only of airmen who excaped from places like the hanoi hilton.

fibonacci

source please?

 

[NewScientist]

Okay art - do you understand the word CLASSIFIED. And you nieve enough to believe that there are people the DOD do not want to become known - or more precisely some of their missions?

America has, and always will, be forced to make black bog ops and as such they will never appear on figures for casulaties as the people involved do not officially exist - they have no dog tags.

-NS

 

[Art]

Okay art - do you understand the word CLASSIFIED. And you nieve enough to believe that there are people the DOD do not want to become known - or more precisely some of their missions?

America has, and always will, be forced to make black bog ops and as such they will never appear on figures for casulaties as the people involved do not officially exist - they have no dog tags.

-NS

Are you naive enough to believe CIA operatives and the like, which I presume you are referring to, sign on for 3 month tours of duty at their discretion. Fib's post claims he KNOWS more than the people I listed escaped during the Vietnam war and so I have asked him for his source. I am particularly curious as to how somebody under the age of 17 has access to classified information.

 

[NewScientist]

I don't mean the Company, I'm talking about US Army Spec Ops, http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/Vietnam/90-23/90-23C.htm gives you a break down of deployments, these are the types of people you do not acknowledge the position of, nor the type of mission they are on.

 

[Art]

I don't mean the Company, I'm talking about US Army Spec Ops, http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/BOOKS/Vietnam/90-23/90-23C.htm gives you a break down of deployments, these are the types of people you do not acknowledge the position of, nor the type of mission they are on.

For goodness sake read your own reference. It gives extremely detailed information on the activities of this group during Vietnam including the names and ranks of those who won the highest honours. To suggest the names (and even existence) of special forces who escaped from POW camps is 'classified' is as ludicrous as it is ridiculous. I'd ask why on Earth you imagine this would be so secret (as if it is identities that are the issue then anon. labeling such as soldier A etc has worked well in the past) but to be honest I really don't care.

 

[NewScientist]

Okay - let me break it down for you - this is taken from WikI as I do not have time to write my own version:

Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention granted the POW rights to captured military personnel, some guerrilla fighters and certain civilians.

In principle, to be entitled to prisoner of war status, the captured servicemember must have conducted operations according to the laws and customs of war, e.g. be part of a chain of command, wear a uniform and bear arms openly. Thus, franc-tireurs, terrorists and spies may be excluded.

End of Wiki

So, a Spec Ops operative who does not wear a uniform is not classed as a POW - and it is not in the interests of the detaining force to make them a POW as this prevents them from torturing them. You may argue in 'Nam that this doesn't matter - however you must recognise that the DOD does not recognise some spec ops missions - thus the term black bag - the DOD has no link to the soldiers and as such has complete deniability.


-NS