News Should Bush meet with Cindy Sheehan?

[Informal Logic]

No right? Russ, can you even begin to imagine what it's like to lose a child? Especially when you believe, as this lady did, that ultimate cause of your child's death was a bogus war started by Bush. Evo's reasoning is good, but I personally would want to meet with all the parents of the children I've sent to their premature deaths. Maybe that's why I wouldn't make a good president...

Bush did meet with her and her husband originally. She regrets she did not express her true feelings at that time so wants another meeting (supposedly). While a president would have concerns about setting precedent, if it had been me, I would have met with her right off the bat the very first day just to keep it from becoming the media feeding frenzy it has become.

 

[Art]

Personally I see no point in a meeting; well unless she gives Bush a hefty kick in the 'nuts'. She is hardly going to sway his foreign policy and he is hardly likely to persuade her that her son's death was worth it for the prize of establishing a theocratic gov't in Iraq.

 

[kcballer21]

So... you agree that she doesn't have the right, though? Ok, so you'd do it because you're a nice guy. Fine. How does that make it a right?

Ok, you got me Russ, Bush doesn't have to meet with her, but he should. The main point of my post was that it is utterly tragic to have to lose a child in such an ignoble war. So I guess I would be nicer than average to meet the crazy lady who lost her mind from grief.

How much time would you ideally spend with each person? How feasible would it be, really? People choose to be soldiers, there is no manditory draft... so in a way they make their own destiny (subject to someone elses decision)...

I'm not sure, how about enough to try to convince them that the cause was worth it. Soldiers don't choose to take part in mishandled wars, they choose to protect their country against legitimate threats and for good reasons.

Those with the power are supposed to take responsibility.

Unfortunately, this war isn't an example of that.

Terrible as it is, her suffering and grief doesn't grant a right for an audience with the President. I feel very bad for her loss, and I agree with her that the war is wrong, but her I'm sure her son knew what he was getting himself into when he joined the army.

Thanks to Russ, I now agree with you about the right to meet the President. However, you would be suprised how many 17 and 18 year olds don't know what they are getting into when they join the military, but that's off topic.

 

[Skyhunter]

Good thoughts everyone.

I think it is a no win situation for Bush, and your posts support that conclusion.

If he meets with her, he will be seen as giving in, if he doesn't he will be seen as un-caring.

So all I can say about Cindy Sheehan is "You go girl."

 

[hypatia]

I agree, either way its a loss for Bush. He has neither the compassion or the tact to understand a mothers anger. And I am sure he can not supply the answers to any of her questions.

 

[outsider]

Good thoughts everyone.

I think it is a no win situation for Bush, and your posts support that conclusion.

If he meets with her, he will be seen as giving in, if he doesn't he will be seen as un-caring.

So all I can say about Cindy Sheehan is "You go girl."

I'm with you Skyhunter. She is doing what she believes in. Good for her.

 

[revelator]

However, you would be suprised how many 17 and 18 year olds don't know what they are getting into when they join the military, but that's off topic.

It's unfortunate that people should sign up for the military without first giving it much thought.

I'd consider the training worthwhile for the level of discipline and stamina one could build up. However I have no intention of getting myself killed at the whims of our so called leaders. I think Yossarian from Catch-22 said it best, that the enemy is whoever is putting you in a position where you'll be killed. Be it the opposing troops or your own leaders who are sending you to war.

 

[outsider]

She has the right to request.. he has the right to deny...

There is no benefit for Bushy to meet her anymore... he can't win.

 

[russ_watters]

So I guess I would be nicer than average to meet the crazy lady who lost her mind from grief.

Well, even if you were the most popular President in history, you'd still have tens of millions of people thinking you were doing a bad job. Grant one an audience and I think you'd soon find the line at your office door going down the hall, out the front door, down route 50, and into Baltimore.

 

[Smurf]

That only seems to apply to American presidents.

 

[edward]

She has the right to request.. he has the right to deny...

There is no benefit for Bushy to meet her anymore... he can't win.

sorry off topic

He can't win in Iraq either. The outcome was cast in stone the second we dropped the first bomb.

 

[SOS2008]

Aug. 18th there were 1,627 vigils in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Well over 100,000 attended, from Alaska to Florida, Maine to Mississippi, Oregon to South Carolina and New York to Texas. Now, the Bush administration has launched a public relations tour of the country to convince the public that things aren't going so badly in Iraq.

Bush: War protesters wrong -
Aug. 23: President Bush acknowledged Iraq war protests but questioned whether the mother who has become the lightning rod for the anti-war group has much of a following. NBC's David Gregory reports.

Then there is the recent poll that showed 90% of Americans believe in the right to protest the war. That may seem good, but that means 10% don't believe in freedom of speech! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9084651/

Hmm...would that be the same group of Bush supporters the police had to restrain from attacking another group of people because they thought the group was protesting the war?

 

[TRCSF]

Hmm...would that be the same group of Bush supporters the police had to restrain from attacking another group of people because they thought the group was protesting the war?

LOL. Well I guess the guy that supported the troops by running over the memorial was more than a little conflicted.

 

[pattylou]

Three things.

1/ Losing a kid increases your chance of divorce astronomically. I've been through it, did the group support, know the people who lost their kids any number of ways. Sheehan's divorce is about her son dying, and how she and her husband are two crumbling walls that can't hold one another up.


2/ bush's solution is as clear as the nose on his face. He *doesn't* meet with her personally, but rather he makes an appropriate address. Not a war mongering address. An address that shows his *humanity* and his reaction to the *death* that is occurring as a result of his agenda. He needs to say Casey's name. This is not rocket science. Sheehan may not forgive him but he will do a hell of a lot for public opinion if he shows that he is not a callous idiot who can't even say "Casey."

My husband disagrees. He thinks this will erode the core supporters who like that Bush is a "straight shooter" and is "the devil that they know" instead of the devil they don't.

3/ The Pruett development was the height of stupidity. Tammy says:

"And I guess you couldn't ask for a better way of life than giving it for something that you believe in."

And this seems damn applicable to any number of suicide bombers.

bush kisses her. He stands up with her and lauds her. The message is loud and clear: "There is only one kind of patriotism. Screw 'united we stand' and screw the people who oppose the war. Pruett is the sort of mom we want for our country. Pacifists "need not apply."

If Pruett loses a kid, she may still support Bush but I guarantee her tone will change.
She's in denial now, and if she buried a child she'd be in *hell.*

To any parents out there: Your mileage may vary. I think I understand Sheehan, and what she's going through. I could be wrong - But I think I get it.

 

[Kerrie]

I think it would be good for Bush to meet with her, and it would also put a lot more respect out there for him for those who don't support his decision making. Him avoiding her (IMO) just compounds "wussy" image he holds among many. He can still vocalize his decision to stay in Iraq, but acknowledging her especially would be acknowledging all of the pain that many are enduring do to this war that most feel is unnecessary and unfounded.

 

[1123581321]

who cares about cindy, let her make a fool out of her self.
that's all i have to say about that.

fibonacci

 

[pattylou]

I'll tell you something. When your kid dies, you don't care if you look like a fool or not. The opinion you, fibonacci, express here ... means squat on this issue, to someone like Cindy, compared to her knowing that her son is OK and/or that there was purpose in his death.

She's making damn sure his life counts as much as possible, and you'd do the same. You have no idea the crusades parents take in these circumstances.

Here's one question to give you some persopective: Who of the 6 billion people on this planet will say his name ... if his *mother* doesn't?

Bush had to *find* Pruett. I guarantee you Pruett isn't 1/20th as motivated to promote her interests, as Sheehan.

Life gets more interesting. Wait and see. I expect the people who think Cindy looks 'foolish' are the people who haven't lived through much heartache.

-Patty, Rachel's mom (And you'd never know her name, if I didn't tell you it. No one else is likely to take the time.)

 

[JamesU]

her child died! do you think she cares that she's making a fool out of herself?! I think that the president should meet with her, she could represent all the greiving parents. and the only reason he doesn't is because he can't think of a good enough answer to her questions.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

her child died! do you think she cares that she's making a fool out of herself?! I think that the president should meet with her, she could represent all the greiving parents. and the only reason he doesn't is because he can't think of a good enough answer to her questions.

The point is that he already met with her and already spoke with her. She's looking for a rematch.

 

[pattylou]

Well, from the humanistic perspective, I'd guess that in that first meeting she was a bit numb from Casey's death. She hadn't seen DSM, etc, yet. She may not have known what to expect from Bush, and may have naively expected that the meeting would give her some sense of pride, or closure, or meaning.

I'd further guess that the meeting was less than she hoped (have you ever heard his comments in these cases? I'll dig some up.)

Here's the first hit on: Bush address "your loved ones" (that's one of his favorite phrases in these matters.) This is from his March 2003 adress to the nation. Casey was enlisted, but not sent over yet, if I recall correctly.

I know that the families of our military are praying that all those who serve will return safely and soon. Millions of Americans are praying with you for the safety of your loved ones and for the protection of the innocent. For your sacrifice, you have the gratitude and respect of the American people. And you can know that our forces will be coming home as soon as their work is done.

Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly -- yet, our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. We will meet that threat now, with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of fire fighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities.

This isn't the most illustrative quote for how he responds to grieving families, but if I find somethin more appropriate I'll add it. In the meantime, it will do --- Do you see (1) how at the time, he gave Casey's choice *purpose*? (freeing the innocent, poor Iraqis.) To Cindy, that may have been something worth getting behind. Do you also see the (2) deceptions that have since come to light? (weapons of mass murder). *THAT* is the basis of her desire for another meeting with Bush.

I think the smoking man was right. What's missing in these calculated discussions of war games, is the emotional human element. Following the chronology of Casey's death and the news about no WMD, intelligence fixing etc, and how this all lines up chronologically with Cindy's normal stages of grief after profound loss, Cindy's actions are human, and a mother's actions - not a calculated "second match" of some sort.

If Bush were to *respond* as fellow human being, the whole thing would play out differently. (Not too much chance of that.)

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do you see (1) how at the time, he gave Casey's choice *purpose*? (freeing the innocent, poor Iraqis.) To Cindy, that may have been something worth getting behind. Do you also see the (2) deceptions that have since come to light? (weapons of mass murder). *THAT* is the basis of her desire for another meeting with Bush.

I'm sure there are people all over the world that want to see Bush about these things and the majority of them won't even get to talk to him once let alone twice. What does she have to offer the situation that warrents a second meeting with the President? Don't you think she could better spend her energy doing something else?

Cindy's actions are human, and a mother's actions - not a calculated "second match" of some sort.

I wasn't meaning my last statement that way. I was just pointing out to yomamma that he had already talked to her and she wants to talk to him again.

 

[pattylou]

What does she have to offer the situation that warrents a second meeting with the President? Don't you think she could better spend her energy doing something else?

Well, maybe. But she seems to have started something amazing with the approach she has used. (Over 22000 news articles on "sheehan" just now.) So, I think she probably couldn't "do something better" with her energies, another way, at least not from her perspective.

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

I wonder if she would leave Camp Casey now, if Bush *did* meet with her. Hmmm. Interesting.

 

[Skyhunter]

Well, maybe. But she seems to have started something amazing with the approach she has used. (Over 22000 news articles on "sheehan" just now.) So, I think she probably couldn't "do something better" with her energies, another way, at least not from her perspective.

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

I wonder if she would leave Camp Casey now, if Bush *did* meet with her. Hmmm. Interesting.

I don't think she really had any expectations. I think that when he said the 19 guardsmen died for a noble cause that she could not contain her anger, so she decided to go to Crawford and confront him.

Bush has so divided this country that people were ready to join her.

Have I mentioned before how I sincerely believe that he is the worst president in history, because of the damage he has done?

And there is not even a close second!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Well, maybe. But she seems to have started something amazing with the approach she has used. (Over 22000 news articles on "sheehan" just now.) So, I think she probably couldn't "do something better" with her energies, another way, at least not from her perspective.

Maybe she feels that this movement is ultimately what will give meaning to Casey's death, even though she originally hoped for a meeting.

I wonder if she would leave Camp Casey now, if Bush *did* meet with her. Hmmm. Interesting.

Plenty of articles about her in the news but what exactly is it accomplishing? Does it give Bush a worse name than he already has? Does it get people's attention? Now what is she going to do with those things? With the clout that she has gained I'm sure she could do quite a bit. So what is she doing aside from keeping her name in the papers?
I just scanned her site and I don't see her doing anything but these vigils. Does she give any of the money people donate to her to anything but her campaign against Bush? Has she helped out other grieving parents aside from giving them something to keep their mind off the death of their children? Since she was so angry about the president using her son's name in his defense of the war why do her people have a problem with parents of soldiers whose names she is using for her war wanting her not to use those names any more?

 

[pattylou]

It legitimizes opposition in a way that wasn't present before.

Thousands of people attending vigils - this starts to become something politicians feel they can make a stand on.

You're asking for tangibles, I'm talking trends. Currently the 'tangibles' are the news articles, which demonstrate the 'trend' she has played a part in catalyzing. It is possible that additional tangibles (politicians becoming more vocal against the war as they perceive their constituency allowing or wishing for such opposition) will become apparent. If politicians become vocal enough, it may affect the "timetable" of withdrawal. It may affect our choices WRT Iran, Syria, NK.

Or, it may not. But an upswelling of war opposition is what we didn't have before, and do seem to be getting, now.

 

[Informal Logic]

It legitimizes opposition in a way that wasn't present before.

Thousands of people attending vigils - this starts to become something politicians feel they can make a stand on.

You're asking for tangibles, I'm talking trends. Currently the 'tangibles' are the news articles, which demonstrate the 'trend' she has played a part in catalyzing. It is possible that additional tangibles (politicians becoming more vocal against the war as they perceive their constituency allowing or wishing for such opposition) will become apparent. If politicians become vocal enough, it may affect the "timetable" of withdrawal. It may affect our choices WRT Iran, Syria, NK.

Or, it may not. But an upswelling of war opposition is what we didn't have before, and do seem to be getting, now.

Approximately 40% of Americans have always opposed the invasion of Iraq. They have tried to protest, but have been suppressed as unpatriotic. Now that the Independents and even some Republicans are against the war as well, there are enough numbers to get the media and politicians on board. You will note that the vigils are peaceful, and along with the crosses (religious symbolism) there are American flags (nationalism) that show the fundamentalists and neocons do not have a corner on God and patriotism. It just may help unify our country, which is badly needed because of divisions created by Bush and his regime.

In the meantime, I hope Bush will continue his negative sell tactics against Cindy and anti war activists. It makes him look as ugly as he really is. And I hope people like fib remain oblivious to the changing of the guard.

 

[Skyhunter]

I think that Cindy is starting something.

What Noble Cause Did Casey Sheehan Die For?
"Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation. No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam."
- Iraqi Constitution supported by Iran-backed Shiites and the Bush Administration (but opposed by Sunni leaders)

"Fortunately, after years of effort and expectations in Iraq, an Islamic state has come to power and the constitution has been established on the basis of Islamic precepts. We must congratulate the Iraqi people and authorities for this victory."
- Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, head of Iran's powerful ultra-conservative Guardian Council

"This is the future of the new Iraqi government - it will be in the hands of the clerics. I wanted Iraqi women to be free, to be able to talk freely and to able to move around. I am not going to stay here."
- Dr. Raja Kuzai, an obstetrician and secular Shiite member of the Assembly who met President Bush in the White House in November 2003.

Resolution of Inquiry into Bush Lies Gains Momentum
There are now 53 co-sponsors on Barbara Lee's Resolution of Inquiry into the Downing Street Memos, including one Republican member of the International Relations Committee, Jim Leach. If your Representative isn't on this list yet, please call their D.C. office (202-224-3121) and ask to speak to the Legislative Director. Ask why they haven't cosponsored HRes375, and then report back to us. A vote in committee will come between Sept. 6 and Sept. 16.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/902

"Bring the Troops Home Now" Bus Tour Begins August 31
On August 31st, the last day of the encampment, the Bring Them Home Now Tour will launch three buses from Crawford, Texas, each carrying military and Gold Star families, veterans of the Iraq War and veterans of previous wars. These buses will travel different routes across the country, converging in Washington, DC on September 21, for the United for Peace and Justice Mobilization September 24th-26th. From George Bush's doorstep to communities along the way, we demand that:
* Elected Representatives Decide Now to Bring the Troops Home
* We Take Care of Them When They Get Here
* We Never Again Send Our Loved Ones to War Based on Lies!
http://www.bringthemhomenowtour.org/

Why Aren't Congress's Kids Fighting in Iraq?

Dear Senator/Representative,
If you support the War in Iraq, why aren't you or your children or your grandchildren fighting there?
The Army is short of soldiers because of the Iraq War disaster. This
shortage has put our national security in danger throughout the world.
Your family can help fix the problem that you created by supporting the Iraq War disaster.
As your constituent, I will continue to ask this question until you call for the withdrawal of America's children from Iraq.
http://www.democrats.com/peoplesemailnetwork/57

Maybe the Democrats are starting to get a pair. About time, I am so sick of Republocratic rule. We could really use an opposition party in this country.

 

[1123581321]

do you see anyone else doing what she is doing? no. she is just dishonoring the memory of her child, who i have great respect for, but somehow i don't care about her because she has to be an a$$ about it. if she would quietly protest the war, then people would still feel sorry for her and respect her right to protest. she had her meeting, most people don't even get a meeting, she should be happy that she got one. besides, what does she hope to accomplish? she is in no position to change the president. one citizen holds very little power.

her husband is divorcing her after 20 or so years, her kids are asking her to come home, she should be spending her time with her living family and morning the death of her son, not camping in texas waiting for a meeting that won't come.

fibonacci

 

[SOS2008]

I think that Cindy is starting something. ...Maybe the Democrats are starting to get a pair. About time, I am so sick of Republocratic rule. We could really use an opposition party in this country.

Excellent information. Though I call it Repugnantcan rule, but that works too.

do you see anyone else doing what she is doing? no. she is just dishonoring the memory of her child, who i have great respect for, but somehow i don't care about her because she has to be an a$$ about it. if she would quietly protest the war, then people would still feel sorry for her and respect her right to protest. she had her meeting, most people don't even get a meeting, she should be happy that she got one. besides, what does she hope to accomplish? she is in no position to change the president. one citizen holds very little power.

her husband is divorcing her after 20 or so years, her kids are asking her to come home, she should be spending her time with her living family and morning the death of her son, not camping in texas waiting for a meeting that won't come.

fibonacci

Umm...did you read any of the posts above? Many other Americans who have lost loved ones in Iraq have joined the movement. Cindy is honoring her child--you got it backwards. The protests/vigils are peaceful, don't you pay attention to the news? You are right about one thing--no one can change the president. Like you, he has his head in...the sand.

 

[Skyhunter]

do you see anyone else doing what she is doing? no. she is just dishonoring the memory of her child, who i have great respect for, but somehow i don't care about her because she has to be an a$$ about it. if she would quietly protest the war, then people would still feel sorry for her and respect her right to protest. she had her meeting, most people don't even get a meeting, she should be happy that she got one. besides, what does she hope to accomplish? she is in no position to change the president. one citizen holds very little power.

her husband is divorcing her after 20 or so years, her kids are asking her to come home, she should be spending her time with her living family and morning the death of her son, not camping in texas waiting for a meeting that won't come.

fibonacci

And what is the purpose of a quiet protest?
Please say you are joking.