Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?

[Drakkith]

Ah ok, now I understand the technology issue a little better. While the physics are all right out on the internet, there are not step by step instructions to building a rocket. You have to manufacture a lot almost from scratch. This requires knowledgeable people that know how to design, manufacture and build all of this correctly.

 

[shashankac655]

Pretty much all of your posts are written in a way that implies that you believe they should.

From my OP to my last post, i always talked about having something to do in space rather than having nothing ,if you still feel that way then it means you have misunderstood what i am trying to say.

 

[shashankac655]

Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

That post of mine had little to do with my OP because it had more to do with my response to ryan about what makes me think space technology is "something different" ,well you may criticize the post in some other way like calling it primitive or far fetched but i clearly stated in my next post that i do not intend to ask all that to be done by India any time soon.

 

[Drakkith]

From my OP to my last post, i always talked about having something to do in space rather than having nothing ,if you still feel that way then it means you have misunderstood what i am trying to say.

Perhaps I have. But it does seem implied to me. It is easy to misunderstand people on a forum!

 

[shashankac655]

I'm not sure what you mean. There are definitely restrictions on transferring satellite and rocket technology to foreign countries. (U.S. Space Entrepreneur Accused of Aiding Iran Satellite Launch). Unless violating those restrictions are what you mean by people stealing the technology.

But the ability to launch objects into orbit definitely means more than just national pride. The ability to launch an object just halfway around the world couple with the ability to develop nuclear weapons gives a country some real geopolitical clout.

A lot of people say that what we need is a cheap way to launch objects into space. Actually, keeping launches expensive is good for US national security. Expensive launches means fewer countries capable of launching objects into space.

None the less, you can't deny technology or keep technology expensive forever.

Ahh so somebody came to my rescue at last! this is what i was trying to say but i lacked suitable words.

India's nuclear weapons program has only two things to do
1)To develop a minimum credible nuclear deterrent against China.
2)To make sure Pakistan doesn't surge ahead with nuclear weapons and missile technology which it borrowed from alleged links with China and North Korea.
And russ was not really wrong, A.Q Khan did steal nuclear technology from the west to start pakistan's Nuclear weapons program and there are several other examples.

India has no intention or any thing to gain by trying to attack Europe or the USA with long range nuclear capable missiles which is a ridiculous thing to even think about and the US knows that but i do consider the concerns of security in the west.

you see when any country has almost unlimited funds and the intention to not let things get cheaper then they seldom think about reducing costs to a significant extent but when a country has very limited funds then it will lead to some attempts to come up with radically cheaper ways to do the job.

 

[shashankac655]

Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.

I quite disagree. Manned space travel is risky, along the way to developing better technology we are going to loose people. I don't think the Challenger disaster boosted confidence. In addition the huge expense of a space program never generates appreciation during times of economic stress (which nearly all major space program countries are undergoing).

I'm not saying that manned space travel won't be good for public perception, indeed if the space race atmosphere was recreated it would be great but I don't think this is a feasible thing to rely on. Instead focusing on technologies that would be useful on both ground and space would be best as the public would support it for the former and when it's developed enough to make the transition would be best.

 

[Drakkith]

i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.

I understand your goals, but I cannot agree that space exploration is the way to accomplish this. My belief is that it is simply a waste of money and manpower. I can think of a dozen different things that are less costly and would have infinitely more tangible benefits. Also, you seem to expect that if you try you WILL be able to accomplish it. However it is not that simple. As has been shown by the multiple accidents that have occurred in space flight to this day, it takes a mindset of extreme safety and reliability to be successful. Not just in the major positions such as astronauts, but from the director of the program all the way down to the companies that sell parts to agencies such as NASA. A single item that isn't checked properly can fail and cause disaster. This mindset is not easily instilled in such a large amount of people.

Your entire mindset seems to be that the western world dominates the non-western world and that spaceflight is a way to "throw off the shackles". I'm sorry but this is not true. You are mistaking spaceflight as a way to improve the conditions of your country. Spaceflight is not a means to an end, it is a result of having the means in the first place.

 

[shashankac655]

Actually the first mistake I did is that I started this thread on the day before my semester exams .
I could think clearly when I wrote my OP but after that I have just blurted out so many things that I really didn’t intend to say and I ended up irritating one of the PF mentors ,only mege seems to have understood what I was trying to say in my OP.

First you have understand that India is not dreaming about Starswars or startrek or things like building human settlements on the moon and Mars and etc. What I meant by investing is space is just about trying to build some self-confidence in our scientific community ,when a little willpower and confidence is achieved research is going to speed up in all other technologies as well. The large human potential available in our fast growing middle class should not be wasted.

What I was trying to say is that nothing is original in modern India ,nothing unique it has become too westernized unlike it’s ancient past ,ancient Indians are known for their accomplishments in mathematics,astronomy ,philosophy and so may other things but if you look at India today ,Indians have stopped thinking all together for a long time but now we have large middle class population(larger than the entire population of the United states) ,we cannot become a replica of the West by just borrowing all the knowledge( I am not saying we shouldn’t) ,we should also try to be ourselves do something on our own without depending on the west too much and become aware of our own capabilities, this is better than becoming a third rate version of you.

I too didn’t think that just investing in space is going to transform the whole nation altogether when I was writing my OP, it’s just that India has not come up with anything on it’s own for a very long time ,Indians have forgotten their own capabilities ,their own history and trying to develop indigenous technologies is only going to be a problem if we decide to spend too much on it ,the fact is we are not spending too much on it,the money spent on research(not just space)is insignificant when compared to developmental programs .(india spent around $80 million dollars on it’s recent unmanned lunar mission compared to that it's $7.7 billion on public welfare in the year 2000 and is growing ever since)
http://www.newsbullet.in/world/52-more/13164-indias-poverty-to-halve-by-2015-un-report
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ind...pment-expenditure-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html
UN-Report 2011.
Expenditure.
http://www.newsbullet.in/world/52-more/13164-indias-poverty-to-halve-by-2015-un-report.

You have to understand that no country the size of India(with such a divided population) has become developed in just a few years after independence, even China has lot of work to do to to call itself “developed”.Poverty and general lack of development is a problem but it can’t solved overnight.
China is working out on it’s own without too much dependence on the west and India should do the same but I am not saying that India should develop anti-western sentiments like China.

 

[Drakkith]

Starting small and working up seems to be a good way to start. A few million here and there for small projects should work fine. When you say you want to do space exploration I think many of us are imagining something the size and scale of the apollo program or space shuttle program.

 

[shashankac655]

Starting small and working up seems to be a good way to start. A few million here and there for small projects should work fine. When you say you want to do space exploration I think many of us are imagining something the size and scale of the apollo program or space shuttle program.

The primary intentions behind the setting up of ISRO(Indian space research organization) was to reduce the dependence on other countries for launching satellites that forecast weather and locate mineral resources and keep track on forest cover and for television etc..but recently ISRO thought of going a bit further but even then it has spent far less money for the lunar mission than what NASA or ESA or other big organizations would have spent for the same mission.

ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.

Comments and opinions will be appreciated.

If you and other people had read the OP properly before posting in this thread then you wouldn't have imagined something like that.

 

[Drakkith]

If you and other people had read the OP properly before posting in this thread then you wouldn't have imagined something like that.

Perhaps, but I stand by my earlier statements about the money being better spent elsewhere.

 

[shashankac655]

Perhaps, but I stand by my earlier statements about the money being better spent elsewhere.

space

And i have clearly justified in my previous post.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/14/government-defends-1bn-aid-india" . Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.

 

[shashankac655]

I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/14/government-defends-1bn-aid-india" . Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.

The money that others Countries are donating are not being spent on our space program.

Let me give the whole history of poverty in India (read the whole article and don't miss the last part.)

poverty in india

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The money that others Countries are donating are not being spent on our space program.

Let me give the whole history of poverty in India (read the whole article and don't miss the last part.)

poverty in india

I don't see your point? Perhaps you could state it clearly. I'm not saying that the aid program pays for the Indian space program however if India reduced it's space budget to 80% of what it is now it wouldn't need Britain's aid. Again I'm not against Aid, I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt).

 

[shashankac655]

I don't see your point? Perhaps you could state it clearly. I'm not saying that the aid program pays for the Indian space program however if India reduced it's space budget to 80% of what it is now it wouldn't need Britain's aid. Again I'm not against Aid, I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt.

i never said it should be(this question has been asked several times in this thread)

Removing poverty is not the aim behind the space program as i have said before that it has more to do with building confidence in our scientific community and it's about attracting young middle class(390 million) minds towards research in science and technology.The Indian middle class are not really interested in research right now ,it all about jetting jobs and settling in life at least they(people who can afford to think beyond just food and money) will get fascinated and may aim higher.

 

[thorium1010]

I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt).

I don't know about space exploration, but space agencies with capability to launch sateellites helps to alleviate poverty, monitors weather patterns also communication.

As far as space exploration is concerned its more of curiosity than practical use IMO.
One thing space agencies can help is in building new technologies which may benefit people.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

i never said it should be(this question has been asked several times in this thread)

So you agree with my point? I posted only because I was agreeing with Drakkiths point

 

[shashankac655]

So you agree with my point? I posted only because I was agreeing with Drakkiths point

Drakkith had an idea(or still has ,like many other people) that India is spending a huge portion of it's GDP on space program and is starving it's own people to death which is clearly not the case .

Space technology can have tangible benefits like satellite launches (commercialization)Antrix and not just national pride.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Drakkith had an idea(or still has ,like many other people) that India is spending a huge portion of it's GDP on space program and is starving it's own people to death which is clearly not the case .

I don't think he does and in either case that isn't the point I am agreeing with. What I am suggesting is that things like a space program should not get funding (or at least as much funding) if you are a country that relies on large amounts of foreign aid.

The only exception to this is if there is a good reason as to why a space agency should be funded i.e. it will stimulate the economy in a teach-a-man-to-fish kind of way but I really don't see any argument like this for a space agency.

 

[shashankac655]

I don't think he does and in either case that isn't the point I am agreeing with. What I am suggesting is that things like a space program should not get funding (or at least as much funding) if you are a country that relies on large amounts of foreign aid.

The only exception to this is if there is a good reason as to why a space agency should be funded i.e. it will stimulate the economy in a teach-a-man-to-fish kind of way but I really don't see any argument like this for a space agency.

foreign aid

India's dependence on foreign aid is coming down.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

foreign aid

India's dependence on foreign aid is coming down.

Good. Let's hope that it starts fuelling more resources into combating poverty and less into grand projects that it doesn't need.

 

[shashankac655]

Most people don't take into account of the size of India's population (1.2 Billion-almost 20% of the world's population) when they talk about India's poverty ,it is true that India has a large number of people below poverty line.(it's percentage of the people below poverty line
that should be considered ,whether it's going down or not)

ISRO mostly deals with launching satellites(low cost launches) countries which want to cut costs will turn to India and so it can have tangible benefits(the market is worth around $25 billion) as i have given a link in my previous post(Antrix).It has only recently started it's 'outside low-earth orbit' activities which are predominantly unmanned.

 

[D H]

I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/14/government-defends-1bn-aid-india" . Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.

That aid is but a bandaid to India's poverty problem. It does not solve the problem. Forcing India to direct all of its government spending toward feeding their poor will have but one outcome: They will have an even greater poverty problem. Other Asian countries have moved on to developed nation status because they have addressed the causes of their poverty problems. India has been a perpetually-developing nation because those causes are still rampant.

There are many root causes that underlie India's poverty problem. Some of them are excessive corruption, a still byzantine red tape system, an over-reliance on agriculture, a high birth rate, a low education rate, woeful infrastructure, ... Giving aid for the poor doesn't fix those problems. It just makes us in the west feel happy inside that we are doing something.

The only way to solve India's poverty problem is to address those root causes. India needs to build up its infrastructure, fix its political system, continue the economic reforms begun in the 1990s, educate its masses. The way out of the mess is to create a highly educated nation that depends much more on technology, much less on agriculture.

India's space program represents one of the many things that India is doing to pull itself out of its very deep morass. Could that money be better spent elsewhere? Possibly. But feeding the poor? While that is a needed bandaid, it does nothing to solve India's poverty problem.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm not saying that India should direct all government spending, it's just that on the basis of the space agency I can't see why it is more important for India's economy than other measures.

Yes it will bring in talent and stimulate Industry but space agencies don't exactly have a good track record of making money.

 

[MarcoD]

I'm not saying that India should direct all government spending, it's just that on the basis of the space agency I can't see why it is more important for India's economy than other measures.

Yes it will bring in talent and stimulate Industry but space agencies don't exactly have a good track record of making money.

Well, I don't know about the last statement. NASA was attributed with bringing forth little goodies like the digital watch. Of course, you can't repeat that effort, but you can employ a lot of engineers and see it as an investment in a healthy climate for a high-tech industry which will pay itself off eventually. (Though I guess it would pay off more if you would invest in, say, electric cars. But you can do both and make a buck with space adventures.)

 

[estro]

That aid is but a bandaid to India's poverty problem. It does not solve the problem. Forcing India to direct all of its government spending toward feeding their poor will have but one outcome: They will have an even greater poverty problem. Other Asian countries have moved on to developed nation status because they have addressed the causes of their poverty problems. India has been a perpetually-developing nation because those causes are still rampant.

There are many root causes that underlie India's poverty problem. Some of them are excessive corruption, a still byzantine red tape system, an over-reliance on agriculture, a high birth rate, a low education rate, woeful infrastructure, ... Giving aid for the poor doesn't fix those problems. It just makes us in the west feel happy inside that we are doing something.

The only way to solve India's poverty problem is to address those root causes. India needs to build up its infrastructure, fix its political system, continue the economic reforms begun in the 1990s, educate its masses. The way out of the mess is to create a highly educated nation that depends much more on technology, much less on agriculture.

India's space program represents one of the many things that India is doing to pull itself out of its very deep morass. Could that money be better spent elsewhere? Possibly. But feeding the poor? While that is a needed bandaid, it does nothing to solve India's poverty problem.

This post is a gem.
Can't agree more.

 

[shashankac655]

This post is a gem.
Can't agree more.

me too

 

[shashankac655]

I can't see why it is more important for India's economy than other measures.

Yes it will bring in talent and stimulate Industry but space agencies don't exactly have a good track record of making money.

Again you are asking the same question ,Space technology is not and will not be more important than other measures ,it is just one of many things India is trying to do that is related to modern technology.

The reason why space technology has very little tangible benefits now is because the pioneers (US and USSR)of this technology were not interested it.
http://laico.org/v2020resource/files/remote_rural_population.htm

space industry

 

[Ryan_m_b]

http://laico.org/v2020resource/files/remote_rural_population.htm

Now this is the kind of thing I was talking about! Something to show how an Indian space agency could benefit the big problems the country is facing.

 

[shashankac655]

Now this is the kind of thing I was talking about! Something to show how an Indian space agency could benefit the big problems the country is facing.

Also look at the link "space industry"...$120 billion now and growing ,now do you accept that we make money with space technology?

A lot of people say that what we need is a cheap way to launch objects into space. Actually, keeping launches expensive is good for US national security. Expensive launches means fewer countries capable of launching objects into space.

During the Cold war the two countries did not care about tangible benefits or about reducing costs and the security reason is stopping the US from doing it now.

 

[Drakkith]

It would have been helpful to have information such as this at the start of the thread, but oh well. That pretty much nullifies the entire point of the thread, since it seems pretty obvious now that there IS a tangible benefit other than the OP's original ideas. I'm all for it if it makes the country money.

 

[shashankac655]

It would have been helpful to have information such as this at the start of the thread, but oh well. That pretty much nullifies the entire point of the thread, since it seems pretty obvious now that there IS a tangible benefit other than the OP's original ideas. I'm all for it if it makes the country money.

Why shouldn’t we arouse public interest in space in the developing world? It make more people want to be a part of it ,it will attract people with talent, it will create jobs not just as scientists but also in the manufacture of aerospace products ,space technology itself can be commercialized (it already has) ISRO has launched many satellites of many countries and will continue to do that ,the “space industry” is not running at loss ,profits are being made and it will grow, when you commercialize anything it will not run out of money so easily even in the developing world ,there are always risks involved in trying out anything new and big. The “space industry” can be privatized and private companies can be given a chance to come with their ideas and government need not spend all on its own this lead to even more employment in the industry and will reduce costs. All this won’t happen over night or in a few years but the developing countries are capable of doing it in the near future, economies are growing fast in the developing world and as years roll on space technology is going to get cheaper and not more expensive like any other technology.

... Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.

i have said a lot about tangible benefits before in the thread even in the proceeding pages,In the OP I mentioned about space technology most of it was just technology because space technology is a part of modern technology and there is nothing wrong in developing it when you know how to use it for practical benefits,i was under the assumption that everybody here are aware of the benefits of space technology that's why i didn't give any links but that wasn't the case. You and other people didn't know and that didn't stop you from coming up with all kinds of baseless arguments that space technology has nothing to do with any sort of development and it is only for those countries who have no other means for shelling out extra cash.I accept the did make a mistake of not sharing all that before.

There is no such thing as a technology that is destined to remain expensive forever and that it cannot have tangible benefits, every technology will have tangible benefits but for some it will take some time to realize it and the right attitude(reducing costs) just because some countries don’t want it to happen doesn’t mean other countries have to wait for them to do it. Space technology is young and was primarily developed by the US and USSR for national pride and they want it to remain expensive, the tangible benefits of it have not been given a thought for a long time and this is only the beginning.
Mining the moon
Of course it is difficult to mine on the moon because there is no air on the moon and traditional methods of mining will not work(and it might be several decades away and may be a 100 years away) but that is not a reason for not thinking about it .if you want technologies to get cheaper you can dream a lot but if you are under the assumption that certain technologies are destined to be horrifically expensive and useless you are certainly wrong.
The USA landed it’s men on the moon several times ,if only you and the USSR had thought of such tangible benefits you could have diverted all the money you spent on that pointless production of nuclear weapons to develop such new technologies that could have benefited humanity today.

 

[cmb]

I think the logic of the question is backwards. You could argue you are a developed country if you can undertake space exploration.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Mining the moon is a hole different kettle of fish that definitely is nowhere near a strong argument for commercialisation of space, especially for developing countries. Even in developed countries the huge expensive of such a project could be better directed towards what I like to call refining, recycling and redesigning strategies that seek to improve efficacy, re-usability and dependence.

Mining the moon is a big pet peeve of mine, especially things like He3 proponents. Hint: He3 is a proposed fuel for hypothetical second generation nuclear fusion reactors. So far we are still tackling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER#Timeline_and_current_status" project will start which if they go to plan will give us a viable blueprint for first generation commercial nuclear fussion sometime in the early second half of this century. Proponents of moon-mined He3 for 2nd Gen nuclear fusion don't have much of a leg to stand on in my opinion because they aren't just putting the horse before the cart, they're putting the cart before the wheel (not to mention the elephant in the room that He3 could be bred in dedicated 1st Gen fusion reactors).

Finally what you are talking about is akin to building a huge quarrying and refining industry down the end of a ~400,000km toll road where the cost to travel is upwards of $10,000 per kg. Yes better technology could lower that figure but there is no guarantee that it will, large space based projects take decades and decades and cost billions. Frequently they experience failures and cancellations.

But all this is largely irrelevant because this isn't a discussion about whether or not space science has tangible benefits, it's about whether or not a developing country should invest in space science over it's development. So could we please stick to the topic and only talk about tangible links between space science and development; specifically space science originating from the developing country (e.g. no "GPS helps aid worker" arguments).

 

[cmb]

Proponents of moon-mined He3 for 2nd Gen nuclear fusion don't have much of a leg to stand on in my opinion

...plus that the concentration of ³He in lunar 'deposits' are barely that much more concentrated than the ³He in terrestrial helium deposits.

On Earth the ratio of 3He:4He is ~1:10,000 whereas the lunar regolith (top few m) has a ~1:3,000 ratio of the stuff. Sure, the concentration is higher, but worth going to the Moon for??

³He is extremely useful stuff, mind, independent of future nuclear fusion purposes. There is currently a huge shortage due to failure of oversight on behalf of those who were supposed to be the custodians of such things. I think the going rate for ³He is currently "not available at any commercial price"!

 

[shashankac655]

Mining the moon is a hole different kettle of fish that definitely is nowhere near a strong argument for commercialisation of space,...

The strong argument for commercialization of space in this thread was about satellite launches ,Telemedicine etc and depending more on technology developed on our own and depending less on technology tranfer from other countries and depending less on agriculture.it is what vast majority of ISRO's budget is meant for (benefits)and about that i was talking things that might be 100 years away.

 

[shashankac655]

growing profits

 

[shashankac655]

it's about whether or not a developing country should invest in space science over it's development.

Over it's development, really?

http://laico.org/v2020resource/files/remote_rural_population.htm

space industry

growing profits

W2M
It is a part of it's development not over it's.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Over it's development, really?

W2M
It is a part of it's development not over it's.

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

 

[DoggerDan]

How is the underdeveloped world supposed to pay for space exploration? It's incredibly expensive.

 

[shashankac655]

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

I had mixed feelings when the first Indian unmanned lunar mission came under sharp criticism, the most common argument was that “should a country with such a poverty rate ,malnutrition and one the lowest per capita GDP really be spending on development of such technologies that are usually done in the in developed world”?
One of my arguments is that for too long we have depended on the west for sophisticated technologies.
The developing world cannot endlessly depend on the west when it comes to science and technology .
There has to be some attempt from the developing world to do something on their own and just buying everything from the west doesn’t do anything good.

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

Firstly your suggestions for alleviating poverty itself is flawed if you read D H's post again you will know that ,you cannot remove poverty by just feeding the poor or just giving them benefits ,you have create a kind of an environment that stresses on technology and education and ISRO is doing that.
I have clearly said in my OP that ISRO deals mostly with satellite launches which are for tangible benefits and very few people here were aware of tangible benefits that can be offered by space programs(commercialization).
And you have very little idea about the problems of India(you cannot describe India’s problems with just one word –“POVERTY”) and how different and complicated it is compared to other developing countries or the rest of the world. India is almost like ‘the entire continent of Africa pulled together into a single country and having 20% of the world’s population and having more middle class than the entire population of the United States and more billionaires than the UK and is one of the fasted growing large economies in the world and has lifted over 300 million people out of poverty in the last 10 years and is lifting 40 million people out of poverty every year but still has more people living in poverty than the entire sub-Saharan Africa and India is one of the newly industrialized countries in the world(but still significantly agrarian) it has around six religions ,300 languages ,854 dialects ,968 political parties and India was never ONE COUNTRY since theMauryan empire (over 2000 years ago)until the british came and established a centralized government in the country ,there is no sense of a strong unity in the country(which is crucial for development ,even after 65 years) we still have the infamous caste system which I think is the primary reason as to why India is not developed today .The politics is dominated by caste system and money and for most Indians, caste and religion comes before country(or nation) There is no one solution for all these problems and nowhere have I suggested that ISRO is the answer for all the problems and nowhere have I suggested that ISRO should going to explore space(because it mostly deals with satellite launches) to the same magnitude as NASA or the ESA or any other big space faring nation.Other Asian countries got the developed nation status because their diversity and problems were nowhere near India’s.

Secondly ,i don't deny that i was quite vague , my literary skills are not good enough for expressing everything in just one post and I am not an expert debater( I have only just started ) but I think I am getting better(if not ,definitely not worse) on the top of all that ,posts like these frustrated me and drew me mad!

ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.

outside criticism is the least of your worries if your people are dying of The Plague because money is diverted from funding a modernized sanitation system to a pointless space program.

You talk as if the Indian government is spending a huge portion of the GDP on space programs this nothing but baseless hype created by people who enjoy criticizing India's progress.

I didn't say that it is - the issue here is that you are suggesting it should. This is your thread! You started it by asking that question!

I would like to point out that this thread is partly a demonstration of how people in the west jump to conclusions about India’s space program without solid evidence or any knowledge at all about the country or the organization and are unwilling to read the OP properly before posting. And drakkith asked the same question and I have given him the reply, I agreed that I should have shared all that before but that is no excuse for others to come up with their own ideas about countries or their space programs with such rude posts!

I think I have said everything I wanted to say(I won’t come back to this thread again) , if I have troubled you I am sorry.

 

[mishrashubham]

Secondly ,i don't deny that i was quite vague , my literary skills are not good enough for expressing everything in just one post and I am not an expert debater( I have only just started ) but I think I am getting better(if not ,definitely not worse) on the top of all that ,posts like these frustrated me and drew me mad!


I would like to point out that this thread is partly a demonstration of how people in the west jump to conclusions about India’s space program without solid evidence or any knowledge at all about the country or the organization and are unwilling to read the OP properly before posting. And drakkith asked the same question and I have given him the reply, I agreed that I should have shared all that before but that is no excuse for others to come up with their own ideas about countries or their space programs with such rude posts!

I think I have said everything I wanted to say(I won’t come back to this thread again) , if I have troubled you I am sorry.

Calm down there. As a fellow citizen, I understand your frustration and desperation. Still, an internet forum is not the right place to vent it all out. Yes we have some unique problems and we will work towards solving them.

 

[Proton Soup]

if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell. how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

 

[DoggerDan]

if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell.

The world's first practical ICBM, the A9/10, was developed in Germany during WWII under Werner von Braun in Projekt Amerika.

how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

The level of technology required to develop either is roughly the same, and if you plan to have nukes, a TBM is the most secure delivery platform.

 

[shashankac655]

if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell. how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

Agni V

our space program has very little to do with it,there are separate organizations that are meant for defense ,i don't want any "ISRO is a cover up for India's missile programs" arguments ,
Everything India develops is open for everybody to see.
i don't know how this is related to the thread but here it is.

 

[shashankac655]

more economical benefits

http://www.deloitte.com.br/publicacoes/2007/A&D_Overview_Indian_Space_Sector2010.pdf

 

[Proton Soup]

the biggest economic benefit is protection against invasion by hostile nations.

 

[shashankac655]

the biggest economic benefit is protection against invasion by hostile nations.

No it is just one of them