Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the role of space exploration in developing countries, particularly in the context of India's lunar mission and the criticisms surrounding it. Participants explore the implications of investing in space technology amidst pressing social and economic issues, the dependence on Western technology, and the potential for indigenous technological development.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that developing countries should not rely solely on the West for technology and should pursue their own advancements in science and technology.
  • Others suggest that it may be more efficient and cost-effective for developing nations to depend on established technologies from developed countries.
  • There are concerns about the impact of poverty and governance on technological development, with some participants questioning whether resources should be allocated to space exploration instead of immediate social issues.
  • One participant expresses frustration with perceived laziness among the poor, suggesting that even opportunities for education may not be embraced by all.
  • Comparisons are made between India's and China's approaches to technological advancement, with some arguing that India is too focused on Western models while China has developed its own systems.
  • Participants discuss the restrictions on technology transfer from the West to the developing world, particularly regarding military applications, and question the fairness of these limitations.
  • Some assert that many technologies are available if one can afford the necessary training and resources, while others believe that access is unjustly restricted.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion features multiple competing views, with no consensus on whether developing countries should prioritize space exploration or focus on resolving immediate social issues. Participants express differing opinions on the effectiveness of relying on Western technology versus developing indigenous capabilities.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions about the relationship between poverty, governance, and technological advancement, with some arguing that social issues cannot be resolved without technological progress, while others emphasize the need for immediate attention to poverty and governance challenges.

  • #91
shashankac655 said:
Over it's development, really?

W2M
It is a part of it's development not over it's.

If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.
 
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  • #92
How is the underdeveloped world supposed to pay for space exploration? It's incredibly expensive.
 
  • #93
Ryan_m_b said:
If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

shashankac655 said:
I had mixed feelings when the first Indian unmanned lunar mission came under sharp criticism, the most common argument was that “should a country with such a poverty rate ,malnutrition and one the lowest per capita GDP really be spending on development of such technologies that are usually done in the in developed world”?
One of my arguments is that for too long we have depended on the west for sophisticated technologies.
The developing world cannot endlessly depend on the west when it comes to science and technology .
There has to be some attempt from the developing world to do something on their own and just buying everything from the west doesn’t do anything good.
Ryan_m_b said:
If you had posted succinct things like this long ago then this thread would not have needed to go on for so long. Having said that do you have any evidence of a political mandate to use the funds from ISRO to help alleviate poverty in the country?

I'd also like to point out that throughout this thread you have changed what you are talking about many times and been quite vague. This started out as a suggestion that the developing world should develop it's own independent technology, then implied some sort of inspiring project. It took several pages for this to boil down to the tangible benefits of ISRO to the Indian people.

Firstly your suggestions for alleviating poverty itself is flawed if you read D H's post again you will know that ,you cannot remove poverty by just feeding the poor or just giving them benefits ,you have create a kind of an environment that stresses on technology and education and ISRO is doing that.
I have clearly said in my OP that ISRO deals mostly with satellite launches which are for tangible benefits and very few people here were aware of tangible benefits that can be offered by space programs(commercialization).
And you have very little idea about the problems of India(you cannot describe India’s problems with just one word –“POVERTY”) and how different and complicated it is compared to other developing countries or the rest of the world. India is almost like ‘the entire continent of Africa pulled together into a single country and having 20% of the world’s population and having more middle class than the entire population of the United States and more billionaires than the UK and is one of the fasted growing large economies in the world and has lifted over 300 million people out of poverty in the last 10 years and is lifting 40 million people out of poverty every year but still has more people living in poverty than the entire sub-Saharan Africa and India is one of the newly industrialized countries in the world(but still significantly agrarian) it has around six religions ,300 languages ,854 dialects ,968 political parties and India was never ONE COUNTRY since theMauryan empire (over 2000 years ago)until the british came and established a centralized government in the country ,there is no sense of a strong unity in the country(which is crucial for development ,even after 65 years) we still have the infamous caste system which I think is the primary reason as to why India is not developed today .The politics is dominated by caste system and money and for most Indians, caste and religion comes before country(or nation) There is no one solution for all these problems and nowhere have I suggested that ISRO is the answer for all the problems and nowhere have I suggested that ISRO should going to explore space(because it mostly deals with satellite launches) to the same magnitude as NASA or the ESA or any other big space faring nation.Other Asian countries got the developed nation status because their diversity and problems were nowhere near India’s.

Secondly ,i don't deny that i was quite vague , my literary skills are not good enough for expressing everything in just one post and I am not an expert debater( I have only just started ) but I think I am getting better(if not ,definitely not worse) on the top of all that ,posts like these frustrated me and drew me mad!

shashankac655 said:
ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.
russ_watters said:
outside criticism is the least of your worries if your people are dying of The Plague because money is diverted from funding a modernized sanitation system to a pointless space program.

shashankac655 said:
You talk as if the Indian government is spending a huge portion of the GDP on space programs this nothing but baseless hype created by people who enjoy criticizing India's progress.

russ_watters said:
I didn't say that it is - the issue here is that you are suggesting it should. This is your thread! You started it by asking that question!

I would like to point out that this thread is partly a demonstration of how people in the west jump to conclusions about India’s space program without solid evidence or any knowledge at all about the country or the organization and are unwilling to read the OP properly before posting. And drakkith asked the same question and I have given him the reply, I agreed that I should have shared all that before but that is no excuse for others to come up with their own ideas about countries or their space programs with such rude posts!

I think I have said everything I wanted to say(I won’t come back to this thread again) , if I have troubled you I am sorry.
 
  • #94
shashankac655 said:
Secondly ,i don't deny that i was quite vague , my literary skills are not good enough for expressing everything in just one post and I am not an expert debater( I have only just started ) but I think I am getting better(if not ,definitely not worse) on the top of all that ,posts like these frustrated me and drew me mad!


I would like to point out that this thread is partly a demonstration of how people in the west jump to conclusions about India’s space program without solid evidence or any knowledge at all about the country or the organization and are unwilling to read the OP properly before posting. And drakkith asked the same question and I have given him the reply, I agreed that I should have shared all that before but that is no excuse for others to come up with their own ideas about countries or their space programs with such rude posts!

I think I have said everything I wanted to say(I won’t come back to this thread again) , if I have troubled you I am sorry.

Calm down there. As a fellow citizen, I understand your frustration and desperation. Still, an internet forum is not the right place to vent it all out. Yes we have some unique problems and we will work towards solving them.
 
  • #95
if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell. how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?
 
  • #96
Proton Soup said:
if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell.

The world's first practical ICBM, the A9/10, was developed in Germany during WWII under Werner von Braun in Projekt Amerika.

how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

The level of technology required to develop either is roughly the same, and if you plan to have nukes, a TBM is the most secure delivery platform.
 
  • #97
Proton Soup said:
if you can launch satellites, then you can launch intercontinental ballistic missiles. that's more or less it in a nutshell. how many non-nuclear nations are pursuing a space program?

Agni V

our space program has very little to do with it,there are separate organizations that are meant for defense ,i don't want any "ISRO is a cover up for India's missile programs" arguments ,
Everything India develops is open for everybody to see.
i don't know how this is related to the thread but here it is.
 
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  • #98
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  • #99
the biggest economic benefit is protection against invasion by hostile nations.
 
  • #100
Proton Soup said:
the biggest economic benefit is protection against invasion by hostile nations.

No it is just one of them
 
  • #101
Those who attain the means to climb the hill are the ones who have the means to climb the hill. Should we give free rides aboard the ISS to those few tribes of humans still living in the jungle?
 
  • #102
DoggerDan said:
Those who attain the means to climb the hill are the ones who have the means to climb the hill. Should we give free rides aboard the ISS to those few tribes of humans still living in the jungle?

What do you mean?

You think we live in jungles ? http://india_resource.tripod.com/technology.htm

Economic history of India

The Article is locked ,don't tell me it is tampered.

We don't need your expensive ISS ,in a few decades we will build our own, with 1/10th of the cost,we will develop 10 times more useful technologies that will benefit the common man.
Before you comment again ,take a good look at the last 3 pages of this thread,think twice before post again. YOU DON'T WANT ME TO GET MAD AGAIN:devil:
 
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  • #103
shashankac655 said:
You think we live in jungles ?

I doubt he means that. It's most likely an analogy or whatever.

We don't need your expensive ISS ,in a few decades we will build our own, with 1/10th of the cost,we will develop 10 times more useful technologies that will benefit the common man.

You have no way of knowing that.

Before you comment again ,take a good look at the last 3 pages of this thread,think twice before post again. YOU DON'T WANT ME TO GET MAD AGAIN:devil:

You are treating this thread like it's a personal attack on you or something. Calm down or it will be locked. Though I'm surprised it isn't already to be honest.
 
  • #104
Drakkith said:
You are treating this thread like it's a personal attack on you or something. Calm down or it will be locked. Though I'm surprised it isn't already to be honest.

He has already been given this advice.
mishrashubham said:
Calm down there. As a fellow citizen, I understand your frustration and desperation. Still, an internet forum is not the right place to vent it all out. Yes we have some unique problems and we will work towards solving them.
 
  • #105
shashankac655 said:
What do you mean?

You think we live in jungles ? http://india_resource.tripod.com/technology.htm

Economic history of India

The Article is locked ,don't tell me it is tampered.

We don't need your expensive ISS ,in a few decades we will build our own, with 1/10th of the cost,we will develop 10 times more useful technologies that will benefit the common man.
Before you comment again ,take a good look at the last 3 pages of this thread,think twice before post again. YOU DON'T WANT ME TO GET MAD AGAIN:devil:

yeah, that is certainly interesting. India has slid backwards, while south korea has accelerated forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Per_capita_GDP_of_South_Asian_economies_&_SKorea_(1950-1995).png

and i don't think it's got anything to do with SK's space program(?), though SK does have an effective foil against invasion since the war(USA). i think it's mostly got to do with SK's emphasis on education. SK's rank is currently 8, compared to India at 145. change this one thing so that you outrank China, and India will become the regional power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
 
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  • #106
Proton Soup said:
yeah, that is certainly interesting. India has slid backwards, while south korea has accelerated forward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Per_capita_GDP_of_South_Asian_economies_&_SKorea_(1950-1995).png

and i don't think it's got anything to do with SK's space program(?), though SK does have an effective foil against invasion since the war(USA). i think it's mostly got to do with SK's emphasis on education. SK's rank is currently 8, compared to India at 145. change this one thing so that you outrank China, and India will become the regional power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

India is an advanced country but in an advanced state of decay.

I never said our space program is going to change everything and make us a developed country all of a sudden , I can't tell this again and again.

And by the way you comparing two entirely different countries who are in entirely different stages of development one has almost reached developed status and other has only just started a decade ago.

you are comparing 49 million people with 1200 milllion people and we had socialist inspired policies till the economic reforms in the 1990's and ours is a highly divided population "2000 ethnic groups ,almost all the world's religions, 300 languages, 854 dialects 100's of political parties " it is not about whether India has become developed, it about India still holding on to democratic values despite all the hardships and still remaining has one country. Geographically India and SK are very different and remember their is still progress in this chaos. SK has a lot more homogeneous population did not have to think too much about security or border disputes since the US was on it's side "what would any country worry about when the US is on it's side?" but India was at war ever since independence and large chunks of money was spend on military and nuclear arms race

Indo-pak wars.
Sino-indian war.

SK was able to concentrate on education and other things because when it came to disputes with neighbors the US was always on it's side and will always be there.
US-SK
I know SK also spends a lot on military but still 'the US factor' played an important role.

I have given a link about ISRO 's role in education before.
shashankac655 said:
...it is what vast majority of ISRO's budget is meant for (benefits).
i will give a few more.

The vastness and different terrains of India is also a problem.
http://www.isro.org/scripts/teleeducation.aspx
http://www.digitallearning.in/jan06/spacetech.asp
http://www.sakaaltimes.com/sakaaltimesbeta/20110908/5619480348012557194.htm
http://www.chinadevelopmentbrief.com/node/634
but still China is around 20-25 years ahead of India.

ISRO's missions other than those related to education also have tangible benefits ,it can cultivate interest in education and technology among the masses.
chandrayaan
 
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  • #107
ok, well i have no idea what you want to argue or talk about then. as you say, you had advanced civilizations when the rest of us were lurking in the dark ages. so obviously, you should know better how to do things and should have left us all behind centuries ago. I've given you my opinion about what the true aims of a space program are for any nation (i don't think it is just india), and i'll just leave it at that. sure, there will be economic development, but in the same sense as what happens in the US - a military-industrial complex with the true gains coming from an expansion of empire. and that may be exactly what India is required to do, especially given china's recent inroads into developing its own empire in the region.

but i will stick with the assertion that if you really want change, you're going to need to drastically change your culture to one that values education. you think your population is a problem? well, education is a good place to start there. ethnic tensions holding you back? try a little education. japan, and now south korea, did not become highly modern, technically-advanced nations by accident. they made conscious decisions to pursue those goals. having a space program is fine, but unless you make some conscious decisions as a society to change your culture, you will continue to simply be the undeveloped world, but with rockets. good luck.
 
  • #108
I feel that this thread has gone horribly off topic.
 
  • #109
Proton Soup said:
ok, well i have no idea what you want to argue or talk about then. as you say, you had advanced civilizations when the rest of us were lurking in the dark ages. so obviously, you should know better how to do things and should have left us all behind centuries ago. I've given you my opinion about what the true aims of a space program are for any nation (i don't think it is just india), and i'll just leave it at that. sure, there will be economic development, but in the same sense as what happens in the US - a military-industrial complex with the true gains coming from an expansion of empire. and that may be exactly what India is required to do, especially given china's recent inroads into developing its own empire in the region.

but i will stick with the assertion that if you really want change, you're going to need to drastically change your culture to one that values education. you think your population is a problem? well, education is a good place to start there. ethnic tensions holding you back? try a little education. japan, and now south korea, did not become highly modern, technically-advanced nations by accident. they made conscious decisions to pursue those goals. having a space program is fine, but unless you make some conscious decisions as a society to change your culture, you will continue to simply be the undeveloped world, but with rockets. good luck.

read the article about the economic history of India and you will know why?

I never said they developed by accident.

I don't know what you are talking about ,i have given you the evidence to show that our Space program has a lot to do with education and i have also said that our space program is not the answer to all the problems and i have never said that the whole country's economy is going to run on space programs or satellite launches.

To pursue our goals consciously we need visionaries at the top of our government like M.K Gandhi or Nehru but there are no such people like them right now.
 
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  • #110
shashankac655 said:
What do you mean?

Check the title: "Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?" What I mean is that the developed world has the funds and means for space exploration. The under-developed and un-developed world does not.
shashankac655 said:
To pursue our goals consciously we need visionaries at the top of our government like M.K Gandhi or Nehru but there are no such people like them right now.

Sure there are. They'll all over the place! It's just that most people like that eschew politics.
 
  • #111
DoggerDan said:
Check the title: "Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?" What I mean is that the developed world has the funds and means for space exploration. The under-developed and un-developed world does not.

India
foreign aid
Industrialized countries
UN-Report 2011.
Expenditure.
http://www.newsbullet.in/world/52-more/13164-indias-poverty-to-halve-by-2015-un-report.
India is not underdeveloped ,it is a developing country and the whole point of this thread is that space exploration (or a space program) is a stage of developing a nation.
 
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  • #112
shashankac655 said:
India is not underdeveloped...

Why are you being overly sensitive about India?

Did I mention India? I did not.

Did I classify India as either an underdeveloped or undeveloped nation? I did not.

All I did is confer my opinion as to the answer to the title/question of this thread.

the whole point of this thread is that space exploration (or a space program) is a stage of developing a nation.

Respectfully, I disagree. I think the title is clear. I thought my response to its question was clear as well. Perhaps I'm in error.
 
  • #113
shashankac655 said:
read the article about the economic history of India and you will know why?

I never said they developed by accident.

I don't know what you are talking about ,i have given you the evidence to show that our Space program has a lot to do with education and i have also said that our space program is not the answer to all the problems and i have never said that the whole country's economy is going to run on space programs or satellite launches.

To pursue our goals consciously we need visionaries at the top of our government like M.K Gandhi or Nehru but there are no such people like them right now.

well, like i said, good luck. i hope it works out for you. certainly, there's plenty of commercial and educational opportunities from launching communications satellites. and I'm not trying to pick on India when i point out the military motivation. i apply the same standard to china, russia, usa, etc. we spend a lot of time promoting the peaceful technological spinoffs from our own program, from Velcro and Tang to solar panels and fuel cells. yet, i don't think that's our primary motivation. nor do i think it's particularly bad if you do pursue it for that motivation. like i said, it protects your economy by not getting invaded again(yes, the Brits, i know). you're just fortunate to be big enough to do it despite being not fully developed yet. and i hope you find your visionaries, because i still think culture will be the most important factor to your success.
 
  • #114
Drakkith said:
I feel that this thread has gone horribly off topic.

Agreed.
 

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