News Should the Bush tax cuts be extended?

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Raising taxes during a recession is viewed as a risky move, especially when considering the impact on the economy. The proposal to let tax breaks expire for the top 2% of earners, those making over $250,000, is seen as a necessary step to avoid further borrowing from China to fund tax cuts for the wealthy. Critics argue that the current tax structure disproportionately benefits the rich without stimulating domestic job growth or wealth creation. There is also concern about the bias in discussions surrounding tax cuts, particularly the lack of options for reducing taxes in polls. Overall, the consensus is that the existing tax cuts for the wealthy should not be extended, as they contribute to the federal deficit without providing tangible economic benefits.

Should the Bush tax cuts be extended?

  • Extend all of the Bush tax cuts permanently

    Votes: 16 45.7%
  • Extend some of the Bush tax cuts permanently

    Votes: 5 14.3%
  • Extend some of the Bush tax cuts temporarily

    Votes: 12 34.3%
  • Extend all of the Bush tax cuts temporarily

    Votes: 2 5.7%

  • Total voters
    35
  • #201
Gokul43201 said:
...

0=3.81_4.49_4.58_3.83_2.87_2.21_1.37_0.26_-0.79_-1.34_-2.37&legend=&source=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a.png

...

OmCheeto said:
I'm afraid I don't understand the graph. There was never a year in that time span when deficit spending went negative. It therefore makes no sense that it could be negative compared to GDP. The graph is the right shape, but the national debt has gone up every year since I was born.

This is why I went to the http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt_histo4.htm" to create my graphs.

OmCheeto_vs_other_graph_deficit.jpg

...
I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. Deficit spending obviously can not go negative, but deficits can (when revenue > spending, which is a surplus). My graph is simply a zoom-in on the '90s of your second graph (just above).
 
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  • #202
nismaratwork said:
I'm not kidding about the whole "cognitive dissonance" issue... just wait for the response, which I'm guessing presents other reasons centered around health care and other matters which return credit to the relevant party. Graphs are notoriously ineffective in challenging faith, and this kind of thing is a kind of faith.

"Faith" has nothing to do with it. Facts do. The fact is that the Clinton and the Democrats tried to engage in big government from the get-go. The healthcare they tried, as you mentioned, did not pass.

Clinton vetoed multiple times welfare reform, and that was after it barely passed through Congress (the Republicans used reconciliation to push it through, which they should not have). Clinton completed NAFTA, which was initiated by Reagan, and he (Clinton) was reluctant about that at first. Also as mentioned remember the defense budget was slashed after the Soviet Union collapsed and the Dot Com bubble took off.

If the Republicans had not won Congress and the Democrats had been successful, they would have likely enacted government healthcare, would not have done welfare reform, and would not have completed NAFTA most likely, and likely would have engaged in other forms of spending (as they are now). Seriously, go to any Democrat/Progressive forums. You aren't going to find arguments for limited government there. They want expanded government. They want more federal control over the educational system. They want college for everyone to be "free." They want healthcare for everyone to be "free." You don't get any of that with small government.

With Bush, the Republicans did a 180. When President Bush created his expansion of Medicare, initially, the Democrats said it wasn't large enough. Then they criticized him for how much it cost later on, although apparently it is managing to pay for itself: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/16/bush-drug-plan-beats-cost-mark/ (it would be wonderful if Obama's health plan ends up doing the same, although I have doubts).
 
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  • #203
turbo-1 said:
Is the graph false because one axis is not labeled in a way that conforms to your political views? We should be able to look at the time-line and wonder why the deficit trended that way, shouldn't we? What is your alternative explanation?

Economic growth and then limited government along with economic growth in the 1990s.

Despite the very self-aggrandizing posturing of the Republicans of the last few decades, they have adopted dangerous and radical fiscal policies that have plunged our country into debt. I cannot support the Democrats because they have supported many of those initiatives and have failed to stop the Republican raids on our treasury. Both parties are to blame for the crap that we have to wade through, though the GOP is clamoring most loudly for "more of the same" W policies.

As I see it, the Democrats live in a world where they seem to think that the solution to every problem is more government and more spending. The only time they ever seem concerned about the costs of something are if it's the defense budget or a war or something.

The Republicans pretend to be for fiscal conservatism, but then when in power, they seem to think they can do big government better than the Democrats. They also adhere to a dogmatic belief that "lower taxes = increased revenues." Yeah, that can happen, and has happened, but the tax has to be excessively high. The Laffer Curve shows this. You raise taxes to a point where afterwards, revenues start declining, but just the same, you lower taxes after a certain point, and revenues start dropping.
 
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  • #204
Gokul43201 said:
I don't understand what it is that you don't understand. Deficit spending obviously can not go negative, but deficits can (when revenue > spending, which is a surplus). My graph is simply a zoom-in on the '90s of your second graph (just above).

I'll tell you what I don't understand...

How can your debt go up if you're spending less than you take in?

from the U.S. government treasury web site:
Debt
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73

I do not see numbers going down for any consecutive year for the time span of your graph.

But you've always struck me as an incredibly intelligent person, so I'm sure I've missed some subtle flaw in my logic.

But then again, you've put your trust in a non-governmental website for your graphical information:

usgovernmendotcom.jpg
 
  • #205
mheslep said:
One will search in vain for any mention of 'Clinton', 'Gingrich', or 'H.W. Bush' in the graph above, which is simply and appropriately labeled 'Federal Deficit' of the US Government.

CAC1001 said:
"Faith" has nothing to do with it. Facts do. The fact is that the Clinton and the Democrats tried to engage in big government from the get-go. The healthcare they tried, as you mentioned, did not pass.

Clinton vetoed multiple times welfare reform, and that was after it barely passed through Congress (the Republicans used reconciliation to push it through, which they should not have). Clinton completed NAFTA, which was initiated by Reagan, and he (Clinton) was reluctant about that at first. Also as mentioned remember the defense budget was slashed after the Soviet Union collapsed and the Dot Com bubble took off.

If the Republicans had not won Congress and the Democrats had been successful, they would have likely enacted government healthcare, would not have done welfare reform, and would not have completed NAFTA most likely, and likely would have engaged in other forms of spending (as they are now). Seriously, go to any Democrat/Progressive forums. You aren't going to find arguments for limited government there. They want expanded government. They want more federal control over the educational system. They want college for everyone to be "free." They want healthcare for everyone to be "free." You don't get any of that with small government.

With Bush, the Republicans did a 180. When President Bush created his expansion of Medicare, initially, the Democrats said it wasn't large enough. Then they criticized him for how much it cost later on, although apparently it is managing to pay for itself: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/16/bush-drug-plan-beats-cost-mark/ (it would be wonderful if Obama's health plan ends up doing the same, although I have doubts).


See? Cognitive Dissonance... easy to predict... hard to overcome. :rolleyes:
 
  • #206
OmCheeto said:
I'll tell you what I don't understand...

How can your debt go up if you're spending less than you take in?

from the U.S. government treasury web site:


I do not see numbers going down for any consecutive year for the time span of your graph.

But you've always struck me as an incredibly intelligent person, so I'm sure I've missed some subtle flaw in my logic.

But then again, you've put your trust in a non-governmental website for your graphical information:

usgovernmendotcom.jpg

I think you're confusing a budget surplus in a given year with reduction in the national debt.
 
  • #207
nismaratwork said:
See? Cognitive Dissonance... easy to predict... hard to overcome. :rolleyes:

That's a nice way to avoid having to defend your actual point.
 
  • #208
CAC1001 said:
That's a nice way to avoid having to defend your actual point.

My point WAS regarding cognitive dissonance... the graph is Gokul's point. I don't see any point in arguing with someone who literally responded as predicted. I get it, you can't help yourself, but don't expect people to do much more than sigh and walk away.
 
  • #209
nismaratwork said:
My point WAS regarding cognitive dissonance... the graph is Gokul's point. I don't see any point in arguing with someone who literally responded as predicted. I get it, you can't help yourself, but don't expect people to do much more than sigh and walk away.

Your point is incorrect as I am not holding any conflicting ideas. You are the one claiming I am adhering to some kind of "faith." I'm not adhering to any faith, which should be quite clear.
 
  • #210
Yet no one here has yet demonstrated how raising taxes back to previous levels is going to help the economy? Any takers? Please show with cites and graphs where raising taxes is going to help the economy.
 
  • #211
nismaratwork said:
responded as predicted

Your prediction was very nonspecific: that responding posts would present "other reasons centered around health care and other matters which return credit to the relevant party". Broad as it was, it doesn't really seem to have matched the posts you quoted.

But then again, I would have predicted that from you. :-p
 
  • #212
nismaratwork said:
I think you're confusing a budget surplus in a given year with reduction in the national debt.

Obviously.

But tell me this; How can you have a higher debt in 2000 if you had a budget surplus in 1999?

Bad investments?

It is a trivial point as far as I'm concerned, so no hard feelings to anyone, if I happen to be correct, or have missed a subtle accounting nuance, that would make me totally wrong!

:smile:
 
  • #213
OmCheeto said:
I'll tell you what I don't understand...

How can your debt go up if you're spending less than you take in?

from the U.S. government treasury web site:I do not see numbers going down for any consecutive year for the time span of your graph.
Went to the link provided in your earlier post and couldn't easily find information on what the numbers represented. Gross or public debt? Chained or unchained dollars? The wrong answer to either of those questions could account for the discrepancy.

Also, there are "off-budget" appropriations that do not show up in the deficit, but get counted in the public debt.
 
  • #214
OmCheeto said:
Obviously.

But tell me this; How can you have a higher debt in 2000 if you had a budget surplus in 1999?

Bad investments?

It is a trivial point as far as I'm concerned, so no hard feelings to anyone, if I happen to be correct, or have missed a subtle accounting nuance, that would make me totally wrong!

:smile:

The word "interest" springs to mind...

CRGreathouse: I don't know, singling out health care as the central issue seems pretty specific to me. The latter part was broad, but then, I hit the nail on the head with the what I did single out soooo... yeah.

CAC1001: Yes, I know you don't, the whole concept of cognitive dissonance is that you HAVE RESOLVED IT, and in doing so reinforced your initial preconceptions.
 
  • #215
nismaratwork said:
The word "interest" springs to mind...

CRGreathouse: I don't know, singling out health care as the central issue seems pretty specific to me. The latter part was broad, but then, I hit the nail on the head with the what I did single out soooo... yeah.

Healthcare was the central issue because it was the first big-government thing Clinton tried, and he didn't really get a chance for more after that.

CAC1001: Yes, I know you don't, the whole concept of cognitive dissonance is that you HAVE RESOLVED IT, and in doing so reinforced your initial preconceptions.

Have resolved what? What are my initial preconceptions?
 
  • #216
  • #217
CAC1001 said:
"Faith" has nothing to do with it. Facts do. The fact is that the Clinton and the Democrats tried to engage in big government from the get-go. The healthcare they tried, as you mentioned, did not pass.

Clinton vetoed multiple times welfare reform, and that was after it barely passed through Congress (the Republicans used reconciliation to push it through, which they should not have). Clinton completed NAFTA, which was initiated by Reagan, and he (Clinton) was reluctant about that at first. Also as mentioned remember the defense budget was slashed after the Soviet Union collapsed and the Dot Com bubble took off.

If the Republicans had not won Congress and the Democrats had been successful, they would have likely enacted government healthcare, would not have done welfare reform, and would not have completed NAFTA most likely, and likely would have engaged in other forms of spending (as they are now). Seriously, go to any Democrat/Progressive forums. You aren't going to find arguments for limited government there. They want expanded government. They want more federal control over the educational system. They want college for everyone to be "free." They want healthcare for everyone to be "free." You don't get any of that with small government.

With Bush, the Republicans did a 180. When President Bush created his expansion of Medicare, initially, the Democrats said it wasn't large enough. Then they criticized him for how much it cost later on, although apparently it is managing to pay for itself: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/16/bush-drug-plan-beats-cost-mark/ (it would be wonderful if Obama's health plan ends up doing the same, although I have doubts).

I would count the number of times a person says 'if', 'they', and similar phrases as a sign of cognitive dissonance. "Facts" is a good one, when mixed with 'if'.

Of course, he, Clinton, Reagan, Bush, Democrats, Republicans, can all be used in place of "they".

This is a fun thread.

ps. Drats. I may be channeling previous posts. I only see two "if's" here.
 
  • #218
flynjack said:
Yet no one here has yet demonstrated how raising taxes back to previous levels is going to help the economy? Any takers? Please show with cites and graphs where raising taxes is going to help the economy.
I'll bite.

My source is the March 2009 CBO report to the Senate Finance Committee [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10008/03-02-Macro_Effects_of_ARRA.pdf]

In particular, I refer you to Table 1 on page 5, which I reproduce below:

2afwe8k.png


The CBO calculation says that Government spending on goods and services, infrastructure projects, unemployment benefits provide a high short term stimulus (with a large fiscal multiplier), while tax cuts for high income families do not.

One could therefore argue from this that money accumulated by letting tax cuts on high income groups expire could instead be injected into other areas which provide greater stimulus, resulting in a net benefit to the economy in the short term.

Whether or not one trusts the CBO numbers in that table is a separate issue. I haven't found any revised calculation of multipliers by them or another group, but that's not to say that there isn't one (or more). If someone else has another set of multipliers that are relevant, I'd be happy to look at them.
 
  • #219
OmCheeto said:
I would count the number of times a person says 'if', 'they', and similar phrases as a sign of cognitive dissonance. "Facts" is a good one, when mixed with 'if'.

Of course, he, Clinton, Reagan, Bush, Democrats, Republicans, can all be used in place of "they".

This is a fun thread.

ps. Drats. I may be channeling previous posts. I only see two "if's" here.


I would think any person could figure out who I am referring to when I say "they." As for "ifs," yes that's speculation, but since when have you ever seen the base of the Democrat party saying to its leaders: "You all had BETTER work HARD to reduce spending and get the budget under control and we mean it!"
 
  • #220
Gokul43201 said:
I'll bite.

My source is the March 2009 CBO report to the Senate Finance Committee [http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10008/03-02-Macro_Effects_of_ARRA.pdf]

In particular, I refer you to Table 1 on page 5, which I reproduce below:

2afwe8k.png


The CBO calculation says that Government spending on goods and services, infrastructure projects, unemployment benefits provide a high short term stimulus (with a large fiscal multiplier), while tax cuts for high income families do not.

Government spending on infrastructure as a form of short-term stimulus I would question. Government can spend money quickly and inefficiently or slowly and efficiently. Things like infrastructure require a lot of planning and detail to do right.

Unemployment benefits can provide stimulus in that they increase demand, but they also can artificially keep the unemployment rate higher than it otherwise would be.

One thing I am curious about though, is where it mentions about money going to the states for infrastructure...do the states actually use the money for infrastructure? I ask because I would think the big public employees unions might demand the money be used for them, either by expanding the programs that employ them or increasing their benefits.

One could therefore argue from this that money accumulated by letting tax cuts on high income groups expire could instead be injected into other areas which provide greater stimulus, resulting in a net benefit to the economy in the short term.

Whether or not one trusts the CBO numbers in that table is a separate issue. I haven't found any revised calculation of multipliers by them or another group, but that's not to say that there isn't one (or more). If someone else has another set of multipliers that are relevant, I'd be happy to look at them.

Don't have any multipliers here, I know some economists are skeptical of stimulus spending:

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/infrastructure-spending-as-stimulus.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/economy/11view.html
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-spending-stimulus-skeptics_16.html
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/fama-on-fiscal-stimulus.html
 
  • #221
OmCheeto said:
Yes, it would have to be a federal tax. And it's not an income tax on the wealthy, it's a wealth tax.
Say your house is valued at $100,000 and you have $100,000 in the stock market.
You would have to pay an extra $2000 per year. ($200,000 * 1%)

And speaking of Trump, this was actually his idea a few years ago, when our debt was only half of what it is now.


Why should government tax people's wealth? Wealth takes time to build up, I don't think government should have a right to tax it. Also, how would government tax wealth? I mean if your home is worth $2000, where do you get the money for the tax? The home doesn't necessarilly provide cashflow, and it's value can change.

Wealth only provides cashflow if it's in the form of businesses you own, or stocks, bonds, income-producing real-estate, etc...and even then it depends. You might own $30 million of stock, but the company (s) might not be paying dividends at the moment.
 
  • #222
CAC1001 said:
Why should government tax people's wealth?
Because they can, and do.
Wealth takes time to build up
Not if it's inherited.
, I don't think government should have a right to tax it.
I do.
Also, how would government tax wealth? I mean if your home is worth $2000, where do you get the money for the tax?
I seem to find a way every year to do it.
The home doesn't necessarilly provide cashflow,
Unless it's paid off, which in comparison to renters, provides a negative deficit in spending.
and it's value can change.
That's why we passed a law in my state to limit taxable valuation.
Wealth only provides cashflow if it's in the form of businesses you own, or stocks, bonds, income-producing real-estate, etc...and even then it depends. You might own $30 million of stock, but the company (s) might not be paying dividends at the moment.

hmmm... $30 million worth of anything would provide me with plenty of cash flow for a very, very, long time. And I'd gladly pay 1% on that annually, to keep a non-Somalian type government running.
 
  • #224
OmCheeto said:
Because they can, and do.

Only if it is inherited though, right? Also the argument, "Because they can" and "do" isn't really an answer. That's like saying, "Why shouldn't the government spy on us?" only to get, "Because they can, and do."

Not if it's inherited.

It took time for the parents to build it. Who are the government to then say, "You can't just give that wealth you spent a lifetime building to your kids. We get to take a slice."

I do.

Well I don't.

I seem to find a way every year to do it.

How so?

Unless it's paid off, which in comparison to renters, provides a negative deficit in spending.

A bit confused here, how does the home being paid off provide any cashflow...?

hmmm... $30 million worth of anything would provide me with plenty of cash flow for a very, very, long time. And I'd gladly pay 1% on that annually, to keep a non-Somalian type government running.

Government already taxes income earned from wealth I believe, whether in the form of dividend payments, interest earned (?), money from real-estate, etc...but the principle itself, I think only is taxed via the estate tax, otherwise the government doesn't tax that.

I do not have a problem with taxes on income earned from wealth, my problem would be taxing the wealth itself. So if you are work hard to build a business say and sell it for $300 million in stock to a company, and now your wealth is $300 million, and that $300 million in stock pays dividends of say $20 million a year (just making up a random number), the government can tax the $20 million a year perhaps (which itself can be a form of double-taxation as the corporation itself is usually taxed, although corporations can reduce their taxes, so again it depends), but the government should not try to directly tax the $300 million itself.
 
  • #225
The CBO table suggests a multiplier of 0.1 to 2.5 for the various aspects of the ARRA (0.2 to 2.5 if the upper-end tax cut is excluded). But Romer & Romer measure a multiplier of 3.0 for tax cuts. So taxing money out of the system to stimulate it doesn't seem workable: a tax of T reduces the GDP by 3T, then increases it by kT where k is in [0.1, 2.5]. So at best, taxing T decreases the economy by 0.5T.

Of course if you fund stimulus spending by cutting programs rather than increasing taxes, you may be able to increase GDP.
 
  • #226
CRGreathouse said:
The CBO table suggests a multiplier of 0.1 to 2.5 for the various aspects of the ARRA (0.2 to 2.5 if the upper-end tax cut is excluded). But Romer & Romer measure a multiplier of 3.0 for tax cuts. So taxing money out of the system to stimulate it doesn't seem workable: a tax of T reduces the GDP by 3T, then increases it by kT where k is in [0.1, 2.5]. So at best, taxing T decreases the economy by 0.5T.
CRG, I'm disappointed by that post, and hope I've badly misunderstood it. No time now to address what I believe are the issues with your argument - I will get to it later.
 
  • #227
CAC1001 said:
Government spending on infrastructure as a form of short-term stimulus I would question. Government can spend money quickly and inefficiently or slowly and efficiently. Things like infrastructure require a lot of planning and detail to do right.

Unemployment benefits can provide stimulus in that they increase demand, but they also can artificially keep the unemployment rate higher than it otherwise would be.

One thing I am curious about though, is where it mentions about money going to the states for infrastructure...do the states actually use the money for infrastructure? I ask because I would think the big public employees unions might demand the money be used for them, either by expanding the programs that employ them or increasing their benefits.



Don't have any multipliers here, I know some economists are skeptical of stimulus spending:

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/infrastructure-spending-as-stimulus.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/business/economy/11view.html
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/more-spending-stimulus-skeptics_16.html
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/01/fama-on-fiscal-stimulus.html
No time to respond in detail now. I suspect I have read most of the entries in Mankiw's blog cited above, but will look at them when I have more time.

I do not deny the role of government inefficiency or the possibility of problems with the CBO calculation (omitted variable bias, for instance). The above post is not meant to make a stand-alone point. It is meant only to address flynjack's query about whether there exists any argument for raising some taxes. Needless to say, there are probably many more arguments presented in literature (R & R (2010), for instance estimates negative multipliers for certain "kinds" of taxes), and many rebuttals to them as well.
 
  • #228
turbo-1 said:
Is the graph false because one axis is ...
I take the graph as Gokul43201 posted from that website to be reliable and accurate in every respect, an excellent source.
 
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  • #229
Gokul43201 said:
Saving this quote for a rainy day! :biggrin:
Well from time to time I'll no doubt earn a reminder. Sorry, I was a little pedantic. I took your point about Clinton's first year or two as a valid caveat (not more) to attempts at assigning majority credit to the Gingrich Congress for fiscal prudence. In a prior discussion we established (I think) that it can be complicated to precisely attribute deficit responsibility, especially in the years when Congress/the Presidency switch parties. Google "obama speech OR remarks inherited" for further illustration.
 
  • #231
mheslep said:
One will search in vain for any mention of 'Clinton', 'Gingrich', or 'H.W. Bush' in the graph above, which is simply and appropriately labeled 'Federal Deficit' of the US Government.

Just curious, but did you mean by this quote...? I didn't quite get it.
 
  • #232
CAC1001 said:
Just curious, but did you mean by this quote...? I didn't quite get it.
Yes cryptic in part due an allusion to old discussions. I meant that deficit data displayed there is only qualified as being produced by the federal government. The data does not speak further as to who or what part of the federal government was responsible for revenue, spending, or economic conditions immediately preceding the current data (i.e. recessions). To get the proper attribution requires some more work:
i) who or what got the economy going to increase revenue (which depends in part on tax rates ),
ii) what was state of the economy just prior (recession, boom, bubble), and most importantly to my mind on the topic of deficits,
iii) who cut or increased federal spending.
 
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  • #233
Gokul43201 said:
CRG, I'm disappointed by that post, and hope I've badly misunderstood it. No time now to address what I believe are the issues with your argument - I will get to it later.

I'm not really sure what there is in my post that could disappoint. The purpose was to communicate a recent result in economic research. I have not fully reviewed the paper, but it appears to be quite relevant here. To demonstrate that, I compared its numbers to those of the CBO.

It's possible that you're "disappointed" in Romer & Romer, or at least disagree with their findings. (In the latter case: hooray, someone else interested in economic theory!)

I had not heard of the Romer & Romer result until I came across it yesterday. I think it's from 2009, so it's not exactly new, but still as close to cutting edge as you'll find outside preprint archives.
 
  • #234
CAC1001 said:
since when have you ever seen the base of the Democrat party saying to its leaders: "You all had BETTER work HARD to reduce spending and get the budget under control and we mean it!"

Never! We follow our leaders, because they know what we want. And as the graphs indicated, they did a lot better job of reducing spending than the other crowd. Democratic politicians seem to be psychically linked to their constituency, vs. some kind of psychotic link.

On a side note on the economic health of America, I was quite impressed when B. Clinton came to where I work and lectured us that America needs to get health care costs under control. (I work at a very large university hospital.) I thought our president was going to have a heart attack.

Bill reiterated his point of health care costs on the John Stewart show the other night. America spends more on health care then most any other nation in the world by almost a factor of 2.

http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358"
Health care costs have been rising for several years. Expenditures in the United States on health care surpassed $2.3 trillion in 2008.
wiki USFB said:
2011 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)

Why is it that it takes almost as much money to keep our hearts beating, as it does to keep an entire country running?

-----------------------------

I hope I get at least a 30 minute ban, or at least a warning! for being this far off topic. And, may I remind you, that I just called all of them psycho's. That's at least +1 point in the consonant dissident side note of this thread.
 
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  • #235
OmCheeto said:
Never! We follow our leaders, because they know what we want. And as the graphs indicated, they did a lot better job of reducing spending than the other crowd. Democratic politicians seem to be psychically linked to their constituency, vs. some kind of psychotic link.

 
  • #236
According to economist Keith Hennessey, the Bush tax cuts were intended to be made permanent: http://keithhennessey.com/2010/08/23/response-to-pk/

OmCheeto said:
Why is it that it takes almost as much money to keep our hearts beating, as it does to keep an entire country running?

Healthcare is about 1/6 of the U.S. economy. Whereas you're comparing it to the federal budget, which is one part of total U.S. government spending. If you add the Federal budget with all the states, counties, and local governments overall, total U.S. government spending is $6.4 trillion (http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/), about 45% of GDP.
 
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  • #237
CAC1001 said:
Healthcare is about 1/6 of the U.S. economy. Whereas you're comparing it to the federal budget, which is one part of total U.S. government spending. If you add the Federal budget with all the states, counties, and local governments overall, total U.S. government spending is $6.4 trillion (http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/), about 45% of GDP.

I'm starting to get suspicious of that usgovernmentspending.com site:

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/tea_party.php"
Back in 1842 Horace Mann promised that public schools would cut the crime rate by 90 percent. That was when nearly all Americans were able to read. Today the government reckons that only 13 percent of adult Americans are “proficient” in literacy and numeracy. But government spending on education has never been higher.

But then again, I do resort to counting on my fingers once in a while.
 
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  • #238
OmCheeto said:
I'm starting to get suspicious of that usgovernmentspending.com site:
But then again, I do resort to counting on my fingers once in a while.

Wow, that quote... I think maybe that person is the one with historical literacy issues? What a load... I've seen better sites touting the benefits of acai berry diets. :-p
 
  • #239
CRGreathouse said:
I had not heard of the Romer & Romer result until I came across it yesterday. I think it's from 2009, so it's not exactly new, but still as close to cutting edge as you'll find outside preprint archives.
More later, but R & R have more than one paper. I thought you were referring to the one from June 2010, in Amer Econ Rev.

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~dromer/papers/RomerandRomerAERJune2010.pdf
 
  • #240
OmCheeto said:
Why is it that it takes almost as much money to keep our hearts beating, as it does to keep an entire country running?
http://www.nber.org/aginghealth/2009no2/w14839.html" :
in 1954 the Internal Revenue Service decreed that health insurance premiums paid by employers were exempt from income taxation
as people don't pay attention to the costs when someone else picks up the tab.
 
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  • #241
Romer's finding of a tax multiplier of three is from the 2007 paper, and has some qualifiers.
THE MACROECONOMIC EFFECTS OF TAX CHANGES: ESTIMATES BASED ON A NEW MEASURE OF FISCAL SHOCKS
C Romer, D Romer, UC Berkley, March 2007

In terms of consequences, there are six main findings. First, tax changes have very large effects on output. Our baseline specification suggests that an exogenous tax increase of one percent of GDP lowers real GDP by roughly three percent. Our many robustness checks for the most part point to a slightly smaller decline, but one that is still well over two percent. Second, these estimated effects are substantially larger than those obtained using broader measures of tax changes, such as the change in cyclically adjusted revenues or all legislated tax changes. This suggests that failing to account for the reasons for tax changes can lead to substantially biased estimates of the macroeconomic effects of fiscal actions. Third, investment falls sharply in response to exogenous tax increases. Indeed, the strong response of investment helps to explain why the output consequences of tax changes are so large. Fourth, the output effects of tax changes are highly persistent. The behavior of inflation and unemployment suggests that this persistence reflects long-lasting departures of output from its flexible-price level, not
large effects of tax changes on the flexible-price level of output.
www.econ.berkeley.edu/~cromer/RomerDraft307.pdf[/URL]

In Romer's later paper released just prior to the US stimulous legislation she sites different figures, more in line w/ the CBO numbers Gokul points to above. There are numerous professional critics of that view (spending stimulates more than tax increases depress), as we discussed last month
[url]https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2833038&postcount=760[/url]
 
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  • #242
Gokul43201 said:
More later, but R & R have more than one paper. I thought you were referring to the one from June 2010, in Amer Econ Rev.

http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~dromer/papers/RomerandRomerAERJune2010.pdf

mheslep said:
Romer's finding of a tax multiplier of three is from the 2007 paper, and has some qualifiers.

I haven't seen the new paper. I'll try to review it this weekend.
 
  • #243
mheslep said:
Yes cryptic in part due an allusion to old discussions. I meant that deficit data displayed there is only qualified as being produced by the federal government. The data does not speak further as to who or what part of the federal government was responsible for revenue, spending, or economic conditions immediately preceding the current data (i.e. recessions). To get the proper attribution requires some more work: [...]
Previously addressed here,
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2790316&postcount=89
my suggested reasons for the deficit/surplus in the 90's, and relevant attributions.

First a bit more detail:
Gingrich left Jan 1999.
The budget in place for the fiscal year under which a given President concurrently enters office in January is created as law by the preceding President and the preceding Congress. So the 1993 US budget was Bush Sr's, which cut the '92 budget deficit by $53B (2005 $)[1]. Likewise, both the FY 2000 and 2001 budgets were Clinton's. The dot com crash was well underway by 2000, on Clinton's watch, and as the revenues collapsed the surplus was cut in half in 2000-01 and was gone in 2001 mostly before Bush W pushed a fiscal button [2].
The Republicans held control of the House from '94 through the remainder of Clinton's term. While minority parties in Congress can stop some actions or slow them down, they can originate almost nothing, certainly not big spending programs. So especially with regard to budgets, I contend there's no such thing as a 'more or less evenly split' Congress, as the majority party no matter how slim calls the shots, and spending originates in the House.

[...]That said, I don't credit the all the yearly deficit results to any single politician, as if this was akin to yearly rainfall statistics. Instead I credit several significant events along the way as dominating the results of the entire period, and those events do mostly deserve credit to one side or the other:
  1. The 'defense dividend' as it was called. The fall of the Berlin wall and subsequent collapse of the former USSR allowed the US defense budget to fall. Bush Sr started cutting and Clinton and Congress continued through '96. Perhaps Clinton deserves some credit for actually following through on the cuts, since there always seems to be plenty of congressmen and senators who want new military spending for contractors and bases in their district. [3]
  2. Tax increases leading to more tax revenues, credit to Clinton. Works if the additional taxes don't slow down the economy as they are predicted to do, which luckily didn't happen because of the ...
  3. Dot Com boom and consequent growth in tax revenue. No credit to Clinton, or even to Al Gore ;-)
  4. Welfare reform. Welfare entitlements were periodically exploding prior to reform. Clinton veto'd the effort a couple of times, but eventually did sign it. Almost all credit to Gingrich and Congress for this one, as it was one of the planks of the Contract w/ America that brought them to office in 94-95, and such a bill would have never emerged from the earlier D. congresses.
  5. General holding the line on non-defense spending by the post '94 Congress. Gingrich's Congress refused for a time to increase the debt limit, eventually forcing a shutdown of the government for a couple of days in attempts to obtain Presidential approval of additional non-defense spending cuts. Eventually non-defense spending went up as Clinton won politically, but Gingrich and company clearly opposed spending increases, Clinton favored them.
  6. Dot Com crash, and consequent collapse of revenues starting in 2000 and continuing to 2003
.
 
  • #244
CRGreathouse said:
The CBO table suggests a multiplier of 0.1 to 2.5 for the various aspects of the ARRA (0.2 to 2.5 if the upper-end tax cut is excluded). But Romer & Romer measure a multiplier of 3.0 for tax cuts. So taxing money out of the system to stimulate it doesn't seem workable: a tax of T reduces the GDP by 3T, then increases it by kT where k is in [0.1, 2.5]. So at best, taxing T decreases the economy by 0.5T.
Let me rephrase, using general terms, what I gather of how your argument works, and you can let me know if I have it wrong.

The CBO has estimated multipliers (x_1,x_2,...,x_n} respectively for govt actions {g_1,g_2,..., g_n} using some methodology M1. Separately R&R estimate multiplier x'_1 for g'_1 using methodology M2.

Your argument is that:

(A) x'_1 is a better estimate than x_1 and g'_1 is essentially identical to or more appropriate than g_1,

(B) Instead of comparing x_1 with {x_2, ..., x_n}, it is more sensible to compare x'_1 with {x_2,...,x_n}.

If that is indeed what you are saying, then the following are my objections:

1. The methodologies are different!

R & R admit that their estimates for multipliers are larger than those derived from conventional estimates. They argue that their estimate is better in that it eliminates some systematic errors that exist in the conventional estimates. But they specifically caution against doing exactly what it seems you've done.

Quoting the 2010 AER paper, Conclusions, pg 799 (4th new paragraph):
" Similarly, our results do not speak to the issue of whether taxes are a more powerful tool of fiscal policy than government purchases. The fact that our estimates of the effects of tax changes are larger than conventional estimates of the effects of changes in purchases is of little relevance: conventional estimates of the effects of purchases, like conventional estimates of the effects of taxes, almost surely suffer from omitted variable bias."​

2. g'_1 (from R&R) and g_1 (from CBO) are significantly different, in several ways:

Since the CBO action g_1 is a one year tax cut for higher income groups (i.e., a pulse of width one year), it does not accurately apply to the pertinent question: "how is there any stimulative effect to letting the Bush cuts lapse on the higher income groups?" (i.e., what is the short term effect on GDP of a step function-like tax increase on the high incomers). My argument assumes that (i) for small changes in tax rates, the response can be linearized, and hence, flipping the sign does not cause a huge error, (ii) we care about short term effects, which I shall define, for convenience, as the immediate year following the action (see also the introductory section of the CBO paper), and I therefore neglect effects of changes to tax policy beyond 1 year as well as any second order anticipatory effects resulting from the knowledge of cuts beyond 1 year. I think these are not completely terrible approximations for the situation.

On the other hand, g'_1 is a "generic" tax hike on all income groups. And while it has the right temporal profile, I believe it introduces a rather significant error in that it is not a high-income tax change, which, according to the CBO report, has a multiplier that is about 4 times smaller than one on the lower income groups. One might argue that (modulo methodology) these are essentially the same, if the contribution of lower income households to GDP were negligible compared to that of the higher income group. I do not know how true (or untrue) that is.

3. The multipliers calculated by both papers are time dependent (i.e., they vary with time measured from the implementation of the action). The time dependences for different multipliers have different forms. For instance, the CBO report discusses multipliers for purchasing of goods and services:

"For example, a one-time increase in federal purchases of goods and services of $1.00 in the second quarter of this year would raise GDP by $1.00 to $2.50 in total over several quarters, with most of that effect in the first two quarters and little effect beyond a year."​
So the effect of government purchases is mostly short term, their multiplier of 1-to-2.5 being realized over a couple of quarters. On the other hand the 3X multiplier calculated by R&R is much slower coming into effect, and takes as long as 10 quarters to mature to that value. In the first few quarters (what I consider the short run), the multiplier stays below 1.

That's all for now.
 
  • #245
mheslep said:
http://www.nber.org/aginghealth/2009no2/w14839.html" :
as people don't pay attention to the costs when someone else picks up the tab.

Reminds me of what I saw regarding the deduction of home mortgage interest about a year ago.

Interesting how experiments in economics can go so awry.
 
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  • #246
I thought of this thread when I heard some commentary on the perceptions of being rich in the US. It's an interesting discussion.

I don't know if this is worthy of a separate thread, but this series asks "What is rich?"

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/features/what-is-rich/index.html

How perception affects our sense of wealth, and taxes
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/10/22/mm-how-perception-affects-our-sense-of-wealth-and-taxes
 
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  • #247
Astronuc said:
I thought of this thread when I heard some commentary on the perceptions of being rich in the US. It's an interesting discussion.

I don't know if this is worthy of a separate thread, but this series asks "What is rich?"

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/features/what-is-rich/index.html

How perception affects our sense of wealth, and taxes
http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2010/10/22/mm-how-perception-affects-our-sense-of-wealth-and-taxes

Rich smitch. This is as good a thread as any. I liked the one line:

SUROWIECKI said:
Well, because obviously the definition of rich changes depending on where you are and by the standards of most of the world, just about every American is rich.

Even though I've made a grand total of $692k over the last 34 years, I've always looked at the poverty around the world, and thought to myself that "I live better than the Pharoah's. This is pretty cool."
Even the least of my steed's had probably 20 more horses pulling my chariot.
I eat exotic foods from around the world: Chilean cherries in the dead of winter. Ribs from New Zealand. Chocolates from all over Europe. Sushi served by a self imported Japanese chef. (Thank you for coming to America http://www.thetakahashi.com/index.php"!)

So I've never had much of a "problem" paying my taxes, that seems to be plaguing a lot of people lately.

And just this morning, I was fortunate enough to find someone this morning that thinks the same way. I discovered her while researching a new "We don't think you should pay more taxes" kind of organization: http://concernedtaxpayers.us/

Which I probably wouldn't have been too concerned about, since I rarely follow politics, but I discovered that they were funding a (supposedly) http://www.artrobinsonforcongress.com/endorsements.html" .
And on top of that, the "Concerned Taxpayers for America" group, is apparently funded by only two people; a couple of millionaires, who do not like bills introduced by two congressmen. These bills would apparently raise the taxes on these two gentlemen (the millionaires that is).

Which says to me, rich people are rich because they like to keep all of their money, and will do anything to do it.

But I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum, and can't comprehend such things, so I'll progress with another tidbit I found this morning, thanks to that young lady I mentioned earlier.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#39316659

Is a link to a Keith Olbermann piece on "What is a small business?"

It seems that a company he mentions, Bechtel, is considered a "Small Business".

I really don't know anything about Bechtel, nor am I trying to pick on them, but let's see what wiki has to say about this small business:

wiki said:
Bechtel Corporation (Bechtel Group) is the largest engineering company in the United States, ranking as the 5th-largest privately owned company in the U.S. With headquarters in the Financial District of San Francisco, Bechtel had 44,000 employees as of 2009 working on projects in nearly 50 countries with $31.4 billion in revenue.

Now I think the Olbermann piece was just making fun of fact that politicians are calling multi-billion dollar corporations "small" for political purposes, as I don't really see a difference in taxing corporations at 35% or individuals at 35%, which is how I read the http://www.forbes.com/global/2009/0413/034-tax-misery-reform-index.html" over at Forbes.

But then again, I might be wrong.

-------------------------
Paid for by the political action committee to elect http://connect.oregonlive.com/user/jodywiser/index.html"-DeFazio for President, 2016.
 
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  • #248
To me, the terms "rich" and "wealthy" actually differ. These are more my definitions, but I'd generally consider "rich" to me having good family, friends, fulfilling life, etc...while "wealthy" deals with financial issues. You can be very rich, but not wealthy, and you can be extremely wealthy, but not rich.

I agree that in terms of wealthy, all Americans are wealthy by global standards. We are about 5% of the global population. Yet today the average American grows up in pretty much a UTOPIA compared with most people in the world. Kids these days have access to iPods, cell phones, super-advanced videogames, high-speed Internet, Google, Amazon, Starbucks, etc...but just overall, I mean the average American has such an incredible choice of foods, drinks, music, movies, books available (Thomas Jefferson would've crapped his pants I think if he saw something like iPods you can load up with 1000s of songs and music and e-Readers you can load up with 1000s of books), etc...you can be listening to Mozart, sipping a Starbucks, while reading a book under a quiet light in a warm home or apartment.

We have air conditioning, refrigerators, dishwashers, even the cheapest cars now have power windows, doorlocks, CD players, etc...CRAZY! You can be living in a double-wide and drive a used pickup but still have a refrigerator, air conditioning, high-speed Internet, cable, DVD player, hot and cold running water, bed, etc...that is rich the folks in the world getting by on less than a dollar a day.

Even fast-food. In America we look down on fast-food as cheap and unhealthy, yet to someone starving, or making due on a diet of root vegetables and rice they can barely afford, something like a McDonald's Big Mac with fries is a huge luxury.

I really find it very humbling when one thinks seriously about the incredible wealth in Western societies like America.

OmCheeto said:
Even though I've made a grand total of $692k over the last 34 years, I've always looked at the poverty around the world, and thought to myself that "I live better than the Pharoah's. This is pretty cool."
Even the least of my steed's had probably 20 more horses pulling my chariot.
I eat exotic foods from around the world: Chilean cherries in the dead of winter. Ribs from New Zealand. Chocolates from all over Europe. Sushi served by a self imported Japanese chef. (Thank you for coming to America http://www.thetakahashi.com/index.php"!)


YUP!

And on top of that, the "Concerned Taxpayers for America" group, is apparently funded by only two people; a couple of millionaires, who do not like bills introduced by two congressmen. These bills would apparently raise the taxes on these two gentlemen (the millionaires that is).

Which says to me, rich people are rich because they like to keep all of their money, and will do anything to do it.

Well two things:

1) Certain rich people will fund lower tax initiatives simply because they may disagree on ideology with the policies some politicians are advocating. I wouldn't assume that every rich person who disagrees with higher taxes disagrees in part because it will affect them.

2) Most rich people are rich because they have provided society with some type of product or service which people liked and thus bought in large numbers.

3) There isn't anything per se wrong with a wealthy person being against higher taxes because it will affect them, they might resent other people feeling entitled to their money and/or resent the government spending so much.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#39316659

Is a link to a Keith Olbermann piece on "What is a small business?"

It seems that a company he mentions, Bechtel, is considered a "Small Business".

I really don't know anything about Bechtel, nor am I trying to pick on them, but let's see what wiki has to say about this small business:

Now I think the Olbermann piece was just making fun of fact that politicians are calling multi-billion dollar corporations "small" for political purposes, as I don't really see a difference in taxing corporations at 35% or individuals at 35%, which is how I read the http://www.forbes.com/global/2009/0413/034-tax-misery-reform-index.html" over at Forbes.

I don't think politicians are calling multibillion-dollar companies "small," I think such politicians are referring to legitimate small businesses, but I think what Olbermann is pointing out is that certain businesses that can be very large in reality can get themselves defined as small through manipulation of the tax code.
 
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  • #249
CAC1001 said:
Well two things:

1) Certain rich people will fund lower tax initiatives simply because they may disagree on ideology with the policies some politicians are advocating. I wouldn't assume that every rich person who disagrees with higher taxes disagrees in part because it will affect them.

2) Most rich people are rich because they have provided society with some type of product or service which people liked and thus bought in large numbers.

3) There isn't anything per se wrong with a wealthy person being against higher taxes because it will affect them, they might resent other people feeling entitled to their money and/or resent the government spending so much.

A. That's three.
B. My response to your list above:

1) I find it interesting how the Koch brothers and Soros are on different sides of the fence, funding ideological opposites: Tea Party vs. NPR.
2) Or they ran hedge funds, or inherited a business.
3) As long as they're open about it. Why all the hiding?

Lot's of the wealthiest people have come out vocally that they should be taxed more. I wonder what it is that frightens the Koch brothers and Bob Mercer. A happy middle class? An informed middle class? Or is this just a game for them?

Ah ha!

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer"
The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama.
by Jane Mayer
August 30, 2010
David H. Koch ... and his brother Charles are lifelong libertarians and have quietly given more than a hundred million dollars to right-wing causes.


Never mind. I understand now. My apologies for not paying attention.
 
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  • #250
Perhaps we should first define the middle class. Should we assume it begins at $50,000 annual income (appox level where earned income stops) and $250,000 (Obama's favorite number)? Also, should we factor in home values, savings, investments and debt obligations to reach a net worth benchmark?
 

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