Should there be separate church and state marriages in the US?

[loseyourname]

I can see Hurkyl's point. The idea of marriage was meant, at least in the legal sense, to promote the idea of the nuclear family, one mother, one father, and however many children. Homosexuals are not being discriminated against in that they are perfectly within their rights to marry - they just cannot marry a person of the same sex, because that isn't what marriage was meant for.

The only legal argument they have is in the case of rights granted to married couples (on the basis of their living together and essentially becoming family, not on the basis of their having children), such as tax breaks and rights of attorney and time off work for spousal illness. These rights should be granted to any couple that lives together and makes the vows to one another, regardless of what you want to call their union.

The qualm that anti-gay marriage folks seem to have (I don't personally have this qualm, but I can see where others might) is that homosexuals are not simply seeking to be granted these rights. They are seeking to change the idea of marriage from what it has historically been into something that they can take place in. As Hurkyl points out, this is a bit like seeking to change the definition of "rich" so that poor people can feel included at the country club.

 

[honestrosewater]

Homosexuals are not being discriminated against in that they are perfectly within their rights to marry - they just cannot marry a person of the same sex, because that isn't what marriage was meant for.

Great, this is the separate issue of whether the law must give homosexuals and heterosexuals the same set of rights with regards to "marriage". You are making the distinction on the grounds of a definition of "marriage". Does this same argument apply to the definition of "religion"? That is, can the state make a distinction between the objects of religious worship? For instance, everyone has the right to practice their religion, as long as the object of that religious worship is God, as defined by Christianity, on the grounds that worship of another being is not "religion"?
In other words, can the state say that a "religion" worshipping something other than God is not a "religion"?
Is the above question the same as, "Can the state say that a "marriage" to something other than your opposite gender is not a "marriage"?" Yes? No? What is the difference?
___
Edit: Please excuse me, I am working on making the argument more concise.
Simply, if the state can tell you who or what you can or cannot marry, can the state tell you who or what you can or cannot worship/believe in?
It seems the state must make some distinction. What is an appropriate distinction? And what are the grounds?

I'm not trying to scare anyone, just pointing out, rightly, that the same argument can be applied to more than one situation.

 

[Hurkyl]

What is the difference?

Religion is not defined to be "worship of the God of Christianity".
Marriage is defined to be between a male and a female.

 

[honestrosewater]

Religion is not defined to be "worship of the God of Christianity".
Marriage is defined to be between a male and a female.

I'll assume you misunderstood my questions: How are the definitions of religion and marriage determined, for legal purposes? How are legal rights effected by those definitions?

I am only talking about legal terms. I thought we just went through this. I used "marriage" because, currently, that's the term used for the set of rights to which I am referring. I'm not suggesting marriage is the term which should be used.

 

[abitofnothingleft]

They are seeking to change the idea of marriage from what it has historically been into something that they can take place in. As Hurkyl points out, this is a bit like seeking to change the definition of "rich" so that poor people can feel included at the country club.

why can't it be changed? so much throughout history has changed...why can't the legal definition of marriage be changed?

The idea of marriage was meant, at least in the legal sense, to promote the idea of the nuclear family, one mother, one father, and however many children. Homosexuals are not being discriminated against in that they are perfectly within their rights to marry - they just cannot marry a person of the same sex, because that isn't what marriage was meant for.

even now marriage rates have dropped...people are starting to cohabit outside of marriage. marriage has realllly dwindled down in the last century or so...people don't take it seriously anymore. divorce is legal, and oh now they can get annulments. people just don't take it for the seriousness that it once was. why not alter it? why are heterosexuals able to marry the one they love but it is illegal for homosexuals to marry the one they love?

 

[honestrosewater]

why can't it be changed? so much throughout history has changed...why can't the legal definition of marriage be changed?

One notable change is the term "citizen".
Of course the definition of marriage can be changed. But the law has to think about the consequences of its actions; It can't do its own thing and pretend it has no effect on and is not effected by the real world. If the law's decision to define "marriage" as between both hetero- and homosexuals causes otherwise law-respecting people (who are opposed to that decision) to lose respect for the law, then it should try to find a wiser decision that still meets all other needs. After all, the people give the law its power.

why are heterosexuals able to marry the one they love but it is illegal for homosexuals to marry the one they love?

This is a good point as far as equality goes, but legal marriage has nothing to do with love. Even if you think getting married is an inalienable right, everyone already has the right to get married, just not legally married. Do you think getting legally married is an inalienable right? I wouldn't think anything legal could be inalienable, but I'd have to think more about it.

I hope people are actually evaluating these arguments, instead of agreeing or disagreeing with them based on the conclusions alone.

 

[theriddler876]

why are heterosexuals able to marry the one they love but it is illegal for homosexuals to marry the one they love?

by this logic if i loved my sister I should be able to marry her? or my cousin, I mean why shouln't I marry the one I love?

yeah this is why you should have a legal "union" and a spiritual "marriage"

 

[learningphysics]

Why is the government involved in marriage in any way at all?? Why is it a state recognized institution?

 

[honestrosewater]

Why is the government involved in marriage in any way at all?? Why is it a state recognized institution?

Probably for the same reasons the law grants copyright, trademark, and patent protections: To promote certain behavior by offering protections and privileges.
People do things as a married couple (shared financial investments, for one) that make marriage a risky venture. For example, a couple marries right out of high school, buys a house, and has children. If the father works and the mother stays home to raise the children, and, ten years later, the father leaves, the mother and children could be in a heap o' trouble- if the marriage was not legally recognized. The law can use its power to reduce the risk and make marriage more appealing.

 

[theriddler876]

see the legal purposes of marriage were have deviated soo much from it's original meaning back in the day, which is why we need to redifne diffrent statuses for each

 

[honestrosewater]

see the legal purposes of marriage were have deviated soo much from it's original meaning back in the day, which is why we need to redifne diffrent statuses for each

How should the laws be redefined?

why are heterosexuals able to marry the one they love but it is illegal for homosexuals to marry the one they love?

It isn't illegal for anyone to marry the one they love. It's illegal for some people to legally marry the one they love. See post #36 for more.

 

[theriddler876]

The laws would be redifined in such a way that legal protection and benefits would not be granted by marriage at a church, but rather a union presented in front of a judge that required signing papers and such, now if you are religious and want a priest to do it, you would still have to go to the judge afterwards or before

 

[honestrosewater]

The laws would be redifined in such a way that legal protection and benefits would not be granted by marriage at a church, but rather a union presented in front of a judge that required signing papers and such, now if you are religious and want a priest to do it, you would still have to go to the judge afterwards or before

That already is the case. The laws already say that.

 

[theriddler876]

not completely, if you go to a priest and say you want to get married he will ask for government paperwork, and if all is not in order he might even refuse to marry you. read some posts around the first page

 

[honestrosewater]

not completely, if you go to a priest and say you want to get married he will ask for government paperwork, and if all is not in order he might even refuse to marry you. read some posts around the first page

Even if that is true, it is the priest's choice whether or not to marry you. It isn't the government saying the priest can't marry you.
I imagine some religions may require government marriage licenses since some religions preach that people should obey the laws of their governments. But this is the religion's choice, not the government telling the religion what to do.

 

[theriddler876]

actually the government has some control over religion through taxes, for example, the catholic church didn't get "involved" in the last election because then they would have been forced to pay taxes

 

[honestrosewater]

actually the government has some control over religion through taxes, for example, the catholic church didn't get "involved" in the last election because then they would have been forced to pay taxes

If not paying taxes is a part of someone's religion, it better also include miracles.

Of course the government has some legal control over religion- or more specifically religious institutions (owning land, exchanging money) and practitioners (people)- because the law (at least in the US which is what we've been talking about) is the supreme law of the land. It says so in the Constitution, Article http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/art6.html , Clause 2. Though I imagine it's mostly used in state v. federal powers.

Rights are not absolute, the law is supreme, and so on. Ever heard people say, "No one is above the law?"

 

[honestrosewater]

actually the government has some control over religion through taxes, for example, the catholic church didn't get "involved" in the last election because then they would have been forced to pay taxes

If not paying taxes is a part of someone's religion, it better also include miracles.

Of course the government has some legal control over religion- or more specifically religious institutions (owning land, exchanging money) and practitioners (people)- because the law (at least in the US which is what we've been talking about) is the supreme law of the land. It says so in the Constitution, Article http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/html/art6.html , Clause 2. Though I imagine it's mostly used in state v. federal powers.

Rights are not absolute, the law is supreme, and so on. Ever heard people say, "No one is above the law?"